Spool order...

[rusirius]

So here's one I've never quite been able to wrap my head around, and looking forward to hearing other's takes on it.

The general consensus I've always heard from the popular youtubers, as well as other sources, tell us that spool pins are relatively easy... Just get the standard pins first which gives us a false set. Then check the pins until you find the one that gives counter-rotation... Set it... Then go back and set any previously set pins that might have dropped... Wash rinse and repeat until all are set...

And it works... I am far from "great" at picking anything, certainly security pins, but though it usually takes me a while it's rare that I find a normal lock loaded with spools that I struggle with too much.

But... Here's the thing...

THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO ME...

What exactly do I mean? Well... Let's think about this... Suppose we have a lock that looks like this...

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
N N N N N N
4 2 6 1 3 5


That is, a 6 pin lock (left to right 1 through 6)... Each with plain normal pins... the binding order of which is pin 4, 2, 5, 1, 6, 3...

Now suppose we swap in some spool pins... And we end up with this...

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
N N S S S S
2 1 ? ? ? ?


Now... pins 3,4,5 and 6 are spools... So they won't bind until pins 1 and 2 are taken care of... But because of the binding order, pin 2 (which used to bind second) will now bind first... Pin 1 (which used to bind 4th) will now bind second...

Once pins 1 and 2 are set, we'll go into a false set where all 4 of the spool pins are "kicked" askew...

Now here's where my total confusion comes in... Everything I've ever seen says, "Check until you find the pin that's giving counter-rotation..."

Well that's bull... LOL... Seriously... ANY of those last 4 pins are going to give us counter rotation. It doesn't matter which one we choose, it's going to start to counter rotate the core as the spool begins to straighten...

Pin 4 is actually the next pin in the binding order, but it isn't going to give us any more or less counter rotation that pin 3 which is last in the binding order.

So for me, I just start from the back of the pins... I set pin 6, and it just sets...
Then I move on and set pin 5.. Which now drops pins 1 and 6... Set 1 back to false... Now I check 6 and set it...
Now I set 4, which drops everything... So this time we go 2,1,5,1,6...
Finally, we set pin 3 and we have an open...

That's assuming I was focused enough to remember to swap pin 5 and 6... If not, then I would have set 6 first, then went back to 5, then 1 and 6, etc..etc...

Anyway... The point is this... Once we get to spools (i.e. false set) ANY of the spools are going to give us counter rotation... So we can either just take a guess at the binding order, or systematically work our way through it, which is what I do and described above...

So my first question is... Am I missing something? Is there an easier way? Am I just not thinking this through properly?

Second question is... Why does everyone always talk about "finding" the pin that gives counter rotation, when clearly ANY unset spool will give counter rotation???

[tjohn]

cuz it makes cool sounding videos

[tpark]

Checking for counter rotation is important to prevent oversetting pins. With typical spools, pins that are set correctly feel solid when you try and lift them with the pick, but ones that are in a false set will give counter rotation when lifted. For many locks, once you've got a false set, the normal pin won't drop if you apply enough pressure when lifting the pin with the spool. If it drops, you know what pin (or pins) they are, so you can fix those before trying to set more pins. If a spool drops, you'll be able to find it, since it will give counter rotation when lifted. Once you get a false set, you can concentrate on those pins that give counter rotation, or if you lose the false set, you can go back to the pins you know aren't spools. Binding order isn't perfect, and sometimes you can be lucky and not drop a pin when lifting a spool. Once you think a pin is set, it's important to leave it alone. This iterative process will open a great many locks, and if you get challenge locks, you'll be able to figure out where the problem pins are.

[ltdbjd]

Huh?? Um, 3.14159?

[Big Jesse]

Well I will have to put in my 2 cents here for 2 reasons.
1... i feel you're over thinking things.
2... you seem very intelligent and i like that you're willing to over-think things.

I have been in locksport since 2010, and i am a writer for a lock picking website. that being said, i have never, ever, ever, seen anyone analytically dissect a binding order in such a way that you just did. and i dont feel that is a bad thing.

i like that you are thinking outside the box. i like that you are solving things with math and some practical problem solving kills and logic. and you kind of remind me of lockpicking lawyer in your methodology. so maybe you are on to something that none of us have considered. i strongly encourage you to continue with this route till you find a solution that makes sense and solves your problem, whether its easily explainable to the laymen or not.

but. my advice to your solution is this.. there is no solution. i will quote an article on binding order that i wrote a few years ago below to further explain...

"Pickers think they have the natural binding order, but really it’s just the binding order that is relative to the type of tension you are applying to the plug within the cylinder.
In addition, if there was such a thing as finding the “natural binding order” of a lock, and the physics of applying downward pressure as well as torsion tensor (rotational tension) to the front of the lock didn’t exist, then picking a lock would be as easy as reading a list of numbers, 1-2-3-4-5, then picking that order, while going down the list… 1-3-4-5-2, 1-4-5-2-3,
This sequence of numbers is called a permutation. There are only 120 possible combinations with 5 digits, if none of these numbers repeat.
If the physics above did not apply, and you went through all the possible combinations out of 5 numbers, for a total of 120 combinations in total, you would eventually open the lock without any skill involved whatsoever! But that’s not going to happen because on earth we are governed by physics, and you are indeed changing the “natural binding order” and creating a completely different binding order that is relative to these 3 things…
1. Pulling force on the plug itself (down/up, fore/aft, pitch/yaw)
2. Torsion Tensor (rotational tension)
3. And the consistency of both factors listed above"

In summery, your are asking very complicated questions about the binding order of your particular lock. I am not arguing that you have definitely found a binding order relative to the tension being applied. What I feel your doing wrong is your over thinking it. If there are 3 or 4 pins that are next in line to set or bind, dont kill yourself trying to figure out which one is the right one to pick, i think that takes out half the fun of picking a lock. Instead, just pick the next pin in line or pick one at random. if you get it right, great, if not, then try again. Ive noticed that Lockpicking Lawyer always picks his locks from front to back, then when he reaches the back or drops a pin... he starts back at the front again, over and over from front to back till all pins are set. (he exclusively uses TOK tension) If you read my article, I explain why picking from front to back is beneficial with TOK tension, and back to front is beneficial with BOK tension. This may give you an indication as to what pin to pick next. It would be relative to the type of tension you are applying. Your either going to benefit from picking the next pin furthest to the back, or picking the pin closest to the front, depending on where your tensor is.

In conclusion, I feel my answer to your problem (which you did ask for advice) is to drop the number game completely, and just pick the next pin that is in line with your method of picking if you have no clue where to proceed next. (front to back or back to front)

HOWEVER. I think its super cool you are being so analytical about it and maybe you will develop a solid method of defeating any and all locks with spool pins. you never know.

Regards,

Wrench

[rusirius]

Huh?? Um, 3.14159?

I prefer cornbread with a side of delayed choice quantum eraser.

[MiPo]

Thank you very much for your question. It caused me to think as I was one who would have said, "...now search for the spool that gives the greatest feedback..."
Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, we have a lock with a binding order that we can be detected easily and that doesn't change much related to external influence.
Now with only standard pin we could have the order 1-2-3-4-5 and if we carefully pick the lock we could get the lock open with that sequence. Now keep the exact same pins but make spools out of the same drivers 2,3,4. This means you need to pick 1 then 5 and you get a false set. Now you get counter rotation from 3,4,5. The amount of feedback depends on multiple parameters, but if pins will reset when setting the spool still depends on the binding order of the thick end of the spool. I cannot see a correlation between the amount of feedback and whether it's the right spool to pick (in terms of binding order).
But as I don't know which is the right spool to pick, I just go for the one with the best feedback - just because I'm use to and for fun.

Cheers,
Michael

So here's one I've never quite been able to wrap my head around, and looking forward to hearing other's takes on it.

The general consensus I've always heard from the popular youtubers, as well as other sources, tell us that spool pins are relatively easy... Just get the standard pins first which gives us a false set. Then check the pins until you find the one that gives counter-rotation... Set it... Then go back and set any previously set pins that might have dropped... Wash rinse and repeat until all are set...

And it works... I am far from "great" at picking anything, certainly security pins, but though it usually takes me a while it's rare that I find a normal lock loaded with spools that I struggle with too much.

But... Here's the thing...

THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO ME...

What exactly do I mean? Well... Let's think about this... Suppose we have a lock that looks like this...

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
N N N N N N
4 2 6 1 3 5


That is, a 6 pin lock (left to right 1 through 6)... Each with plain normal pins... the binding order of which is pin 4, 2, 5, 1, 6, 3...

Now suppose we swap in some spool pins... And we end up with this...

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
N N S S S S
2 1 ? ? ? ?


Now... pins 3,4,5 and 6 are spools... So they won't bind until pins 1 and 2 are taken care of... But because of the binding order, pin 2 (which used to bind second) will now bind first... Pin 1 (which used to bind 4th) will now bind second...

Once pins 1 and 2 are set, we'll go into a false set where all 4 of the spool pins are "kicked" askew...

Now here's where my total confusion comes in... Everything I've ever seen says, "Check until you find the pin that's giving counter-rotation..."

Well that's bull... LOL... Seriously... ANY of those last 4 pins are going to give us counter rotation. It doesn't matter which one we choose, it's going to start to counter rotate the core as the spool begins to straighten...

Pin 4 is actually the next pin in the binding order, but it isn't going to give us any more or less counter rotation that pin 3 which is last in the binding order.

So for me, I just start from the back of the pins... I set pin 6, and it just sets...
Then I move on and set pin 5.. Which now drops pins 1 and 6... Set 1 back to false... Now I check 6 and set it...
Now I set 4, which drops everything... So this time we go 2,1,5,1,6...
Finally, we set pin 3 and we have an open...

That's assuming I was focused enough to remember to swap pin 5 and 6... If not, then I would have set 6 first, then went back to 5, then 1 and 6, etc..etc...

Anyway... The point is this... Once we get to spools (i.e. false set) ANY of the spools are going to give us counter rotation... So we can either just take a guess at the binding order, or systematically work our way through it, which is what I do and described above...

So my first question is... Am I missing something? Is there an easier way? Am I just not thinking this through properly?

Second question is... Why does everyone always talk about "finding" the pin that gives counter rotation, when clearly ANY unset spool will give counter rotation???