Best SFIC Removal

[Exodus5000]

While reading Matt Blaze's bit on Best SFICs:
http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/sfic/

He of course described how a key that is cut to set the pins at the control shear line would allow removal of the core - hence a control key. Is it just as possible to pick a Best SFIC to the control shear line and remove a core using standard hand tools?

If so wouldn't this present a security threat, I mean once you have the core you could decode the control key, the master key, etc.

[zeke79]

yes you can with an i-core tension tool. It basically engages holes that are in the bottom of the keyway and puts tension on the control sleeve(term may not be correct) and allows you to pick the lock to the control sheer line at this point. Some of the newer locks make this impossible with an i-core tension tool as the holes in the bottom of the keyware are machined into slots now and will not allow the turning tool to put tension of the control sleeve. Hope this makes sense as i am not sure what some of the components of the best lock are commonly referred to as.

[Exodus5000]

I think I follow, the special tension tool engage the lock in a way to make that shear line available. Which raises another question and the real purpose i suppose of this post - I have seen a best SFIC removed by picking without the use of a special tension tool. Was this core just installed incorrectly?

[zeke79]

hmmm, i do not see how the core could be removed with a regular turning tool. The icore tension tool looks similar to a standard turning tool. Here is a link to the picture of one. http://www.lockpicks.com/index.asp?Page ... ProdID=318

Yes, these do pose a security threat if they are removed or decoded. Most places i see these also utilize a security system of some sort(wal-mart stores).

[funboy79015]

It should be possible to remove the a best core without using the special tension tool. However, it would much more difficult with a regular tension tool because instead of applying tension directly to the control sleeve you are applying tension to the plug and the binding pins are what is applying tension to the control sleeve. It would be hard to know which shear line the pins are setting at.

[Chucklz]

Ive picked control on Best SFIC cores dozens of times. I still don't own a special tension tool for it. For many keyways all you need is to put your tool in at a slight downward angle.

[zeke79]

Thanks for the tip chucklz. I have not messed with best locks that much so i was taking a stab in the dark.

[Chucklz]

They can be interesting characters. If the lock is newly pinned up, picking control is more likely than picking to operating shearline, at least in my experience.

[zeke79]

i'll have to keep an eye out on ebay for a few of these. Right now I am tapped out. I just bought a unican simplex, a S&G 6700, and a LaGard 3330 off ebay in the past couple of weeks plus my pinning kits the week before that. I better lay off the buying stuff or i'll rattle when i walk from my wife shooving my keying kits up my rear.

[lockcsi]

as Chuck said yes , you can pick a SFIC to the control line without a special tension tool i've done it, seen it done, and done it by accident just trying to get the lock open. It's simply another sheer line in the lock. Yes it could be a security issue for someone to remove a lock and decode it.... (but think about most other locks where all you need is a screwdriver to take it apart) however you have aaround 24 pins in the lock depending on you method of master keying (rotating constant etc... etc..)(thats in a 6 pin... 28 in seven pin) 6 bottom pins usually 6 sometimes more or less master pins then 6 build up pins and then 6 top pins..... a master key is not easy to figure out from this and is in fact impossable to figure out unless you have other components liek a working key or other locks to compare it too.... add this to the knowledge needed to take apart and decode one of these locks and get it abck together, pick it again to the control line and reinstall it in the door..... and althoguh matt may have some intellegent work.. hes an idiot ... he takes what the locksmith industry knew for years and went to the public with it.... it wasn't anything new we knew about it a long time ago... also most locksmiths who are institutional locksmiths use their own method of master keying to keep other locksmiths from taking over the system... job security ya know.... usually it envolves combining different methods of master keying... and lets not forget the biggest issue master keying and IC core systems are NOT high security (although they may have a more restricted keyway) and should not be sold as high security... they were invented for convience only. hope this helps
-lc

[Mad Mick]

Hold on there matey,

and althoguh matt may have some intellegent work.. hes an idiot ... he takes what the locksmith industry knew for years and went to the public with it....

this could be construed as slander in some circles, not just the opinion of another. We've already had one bad experience with Dr. Blaze and this sort of attitude is inviting another. Please review your choice of words in future.

[lockcsi]

whatever ... just want some people to realize you can't take everything you read and apply it... and you shouldn't think highly of someone who publishes a new idea thats already been done for years

[initnull]

Deducting the master key is easy if you have two core with the same master key

[Varjeal]

Is Matt Blaze an idiot? I think not, he went through the rigorous mathematics, etc. to figure out why's and wherefore's of "security" in masterkey systems.

Did a lot of us know about it? Yeah, but how many could mathematically explain it? Also, how many took the time to inform the public about it?

Just one.

I may not agree with him about why he did it, because I personally feel that he's inciting (although I'm sure not deliberately) a bit of panic. It has always been known by locksmiths that masterkey systems have reduced security, and most honest locksmiths with any degree of integrity will inform the customer/client that security is being sacrified for convenience. This is why the industry has been designing restrictive keyways, etc. in order to try to regain some of that security.

Does he have the right to publish such material? Well, according to your U.S. constitution he does, and he has the right to challenge those that use that system to come up with something better.

I think it's o.k. to try and influence the industry to do something better, I just don't agree with the way he's gone about it, that's all.

I would agree with others to advise all to choose their words carefully. It's o.k. to disagree with someone, but to degenerate them personally because you don't agree is definitely not wise.

Regarding I/C's, it's generally accepted that unless your lucky or the system is small that at least 2 cylinders need to be acquired (this is assuming no keys are available nor codes known) and decoded in order to decipher the control key and master keys.

[CaptHook]

Ive touched on this before, but will elaborate a little more. Take a thick tension wrench, thick and wide enough to be wedged between the bottommost ward in keyway and the control sleeve. Having the wrench snuggly wedged in this position allows you to apply turning pressure to the control sleeve (there is a physical bind created between the plug and the control sleeve). From my experience, it works as well or better than the sfic wrenches. When I first posted this, I suggested raking, because that is where I had my most success, since then, Ive made thicker wrenches and have found it very possible to single pin pick the sleeve, again, the wrench needs to snuggly be wedged in between the plugs ward and the sleeve.
Chuck