Schlage vs. Kwikset

[Zenophryk]

So many years ago I standardized all my properties with Schlage hardware. That way I only needed 1 rekeying kit and all that. So I've been repairing and rekeying these deadbolts and knobs as needed. Whenever I got a property that didn't have Schlage I simply swapped out the hardware and threw the old hardware in a box.
So now I have enough Kwikset hardware in the box to make it worth while in rekeying some of those.

So I was rekeying my first Kwikset lock the other night and saw that the bottom pins had a heavy chamfer on both ends of the pin. (haven't looked at the top pins yet). By comparison, the Schlage bottom pins have a point on one end (to interact with the key) and the other end is almost flat. It has a very slight dome shape to it. and the top pins have a similar very slight dome shape on them as well to give the shear line a nice smooth action. But the Kwikset bottom pins have a huge chamfer on both ends. So after seeing that I figured these would be incredibly easy to pick since the shear line is going to have some huge tolerance. And sure enough, I opened all 6 of the locks in under 10 seconds each. And I'm still trying to get the feel for picking.
So this was a little disappointing.

Is this normal? Is quickset really that sloppy? Does everyone have that much of an easier time with Kwikset over Schlage (not that Schlage is all that hard)?

-Zenophryk-

[GWiens2001]

It is normal.

Gordon

[cheerIO]

Yup, normal.

You get quite a bit more security when buying Schlage.

Of course a Schlage Deadbolt is 3 times the price of a Kwikset in my local home improvement stores. So no surprise that every house I've looked at has either a Kwikset or a variant. If you don't know about the guts and how they apply to security, I can see why people just buy the cheaper locks.

[nick08037]

Hello Zenophryk,

"the bottom pins had a heavy chamfer on both ends of the pin", ... Yes this is the design of the Kwikset pins and as you observed it makes them very susceptible to picking.

I can only guess that the original designer of the Kwikset pin cylinder knowingly sacrificed security to create a lock that would rarely fail to open for owner's key even after rough use and little care. Additionally it could be mass produced cheaply with poor machine and manufacturing tolerances. A win for Kwikset and a win for the property owner if you did not factor in the actual need for a secure lock.

Maybe someone here can provide more information on how the Kwikset lock became so successful for the company and popular with the public.

-Nick

PS.

I find it so odd that with the Kwikset Smartkey wafer lock they have created just the opposite. A lock that is very secure against picking but incredibly unreliable for the property owner. Here they have sacrificed reliability and durability (and strength) for the idea that property owners will be sold on the convenience of and need for their rapid rekey design benefit. The Kwikset Smartkey video ad that runs on youtube is very amusing.

[Squelchtone]

Also take note that Schlage keys often look very jagged and Kwikset keys look pretty flat across the blade, due to the fact that Schlage has 9 cut depths and Kwikset only uses 6, so there are less combinations on a Kwikset, which to me also translates to easier picking.

[billdeserthills]

Hello Zenophryk,

"the bottom pins had a heavy chamfer on both ends of the pin", ... Yes this is the design of the Kwikset pins and as you observed it makes them very susceptible to picking.

I can only guess that the original designer of the Kwikset pin cylinder knowingly sacrificed security to create a lock that would rarely fail to open for owner's key even after rough use and little care. Additionally it could be mass produced cheaply with poor machine and manufacturing tolerances. A win for Kwikset and a win for the property owner if you did not factor in the actual need for a secure lock.

Maybe someone here can provide more information on how the Kwikset lock became so successful for the company and popular with the public.

-Nick

PS.

I find it so odd that with the Kwikset Smartkey wafer lock they have created just the opposite. A lock that is very secure against picking but incredibly unreliable for the property owner. Here they have sacrificed reliability and durability (and strength) for the idea that property owners will be sold on the convenience of and need for their rapid rekey design benefit. The Kwikset Smartkey video ad that runs on youtube is very amusing.

It is my understanding that kwikset began using the double-chamfered pins to make up for the inconsistancies found in the pot metal that kwikset uses to make their crummy locks with.
As mentioned earlier, kwikset locks cost much less than a schlage lock does and that is why I now see them pleced on multi-million dollar homes in my area. Funny thing is, to my eyes,
schlage is doing almost everything they can to make their locks cost less and break faster, including not lubricating any moving parts. I can still find older model schlage locks that only
need some cleaning & a smear of teflon grease to put them back into service, it used to be a real testament to the staying power of Quality, before these companies began to view it as
an embarrassment, due to the great lot of unsold locks that this "staying power" transitioned to. Ever wanna see planned obsolescance, simply take a look at a kwikset deadbolt. The only
actual lubricant is placed inside the thumb-turm.

[Pintickler]

It is true that Schlages are much harder to pick, and they are a higher quality lock without a doubt but there are some other differences that may sway some people in the direction of Kwikset.
Schlage knobs, and levers are always unlocked from the inside. Kwikset knobs are locked from both sides when they're locked, meaning they have to be unlocked before somebody can go out. That extra step might make it a little harder to accidently lock yourself out, which could be a major selling point for some people.
Also, I find that Schlage knobs, are less conducive to master pinning than Kwiksets. I have never had a problem with master wafers in a Kwikset knob but those Schlage cylinders with the springs showing have given me problems before.
For people who don't see well or who's hands tremble I would also recommend Kwikset over Schlage because Schlage locks force the key to be perfectly level and straight or they won't go in the keyway. Kwiksets have a more accommodating keyway and are easier for old folks to deal with.
Even though I personally prefer Schlage products over Kwikset because they're better built and offer a higher level or security, I do occasionally run across some higher quality, 6 pin locks made by Kwikset.

[billdeserthills]

It is true that Schlages are much harder to pick, and they are a higher quality lock without a doubt but there are some other differences that may sway some people in the direction of Kwikset.
Schlage knobs, and levers are always unlocked from the inside. Kwikset knobs are locked from both sides when they're locked, meaning they have to be unlocked before somebody can go out. That extra step might make it a little harder to accidently lock yourself out, which could be a major selling point for some people.
Also, I find that Schlage knobs, are less conducive to master pinning than Kwiksets. I have never had a problem with master wafers in a Kwikset knob but those Schlage cylinders with the springs showing have given me problems before.
For people who don't see well or who's hands tremble I would also recommend Kwikset over Schlage because Schlage locks force the key to be perfectly level and straight or they won't go in the keyway. Kwiksets have a more accommodating keyway and are easier for old folks to deal with.
Even though I personally prefer Schlage products over Kwikset because they're better built and offer a higher level or security, I do occasionally run across some higher quality, 6 pin locks made by Kwikset.

I understand that in California all knobs & levers are required to be unlocked on the inside at all times. Schlage decided that rather than begin making a new line of locks for sale to just california, they went ahead and changed All their knobs & levers to always being unlocked from the inside. I agree that it is stupid and has made me a bunch of money and also allowed me to see many folks wearing their underwear, or even less...

[cledry]

You don't need to use the flat OEM pins in a Kwikset. In fact you don't need to widen the cuts if you use regular pins. The use of these pins has nothing to do with pot metal but everything to do with loading the pins at the factory. Kwikset used to (perhaps still does offer a better line, with brass plugs, 6 pins, anti-drill bearing etc. By the same token most Schlage these days are crap at least what big box retailers sell.

Had a customer with a newish Schlage pitcher handle yesterday, when you push the thumb piece the entire through spindle has to turn and thus the strong spring on the inside lever must be moved as well, this results in an extremely difficult thumbpiece operation. Seems a pretty poor design to me.

[hawleylock]

Most residential grade locks (Grade 3), are not much to get excited about, no matter who makes them.

Schlage used to be the lock to recommend. To stay competitive in Home Depot and similar stores, they've introduced many cheaper locks that aren't much better than Kwikset. I personally prefer their grade 1 or 2 locks. Not cheap, but instead of replacing them every 3-5 years, you'll get 20+ years out of them.

[Squelchtone]

Most residential grade locks (Grade 3), are not much to get excited about, no matter who makes them.

Schlage used to be the lock to recommend. To stay competitive in Home Depot and similar stores, they've introduced many cheaper locks that aren't much better than Kwikset. I personally prefer their grade 1 or 2 locks. Not cheap, but instead of replacing them every 3-5 years, you'll get 20+ years out of them.

That's a good point. It is also worth mentioning to those who buy and install Schlage for their house, office, or properties that the big box store Schlage models uses a much different bolt thrower / tailpiece assembly on the back of the plug than their Grade 1 commercial Schlage hardware available at your local locksmith shop.

What does that mean to you? Well, let's say you want to put a new cylinder in and you buy one online, or want to upgrade to some better key security so you buy a high(er) security retrofit cylinder, it simply wont work to put it into the big box store Grade2/3 Schlage, the tailpiece mechanism is not standard to other lock makers who make upgrade or retrofit cylinders, so you end up throwing out the entire deadbolt and having to buy a Grade 1 Schlage for $65-$100 at the local locksmith shop, and then you can slide in an upgrade cylinder from one of the many companies that make Schlage retrofit cylinders for people looking for better security on a budget without replacing the entire deadbolt assembly and just looking for a new core from companies such as Mul-t-lock, Abloy, Medeco, Arrow, Marks, Bilock, etc.

EDIT: I will add that the model number might make more sense to compare against than just looking for Grade 1 or Grade 2. They've started marketing the big box store junk models as having Grade 1 parts, but not the entire lock assembly is Grade 1, just some of the components. It's a sneaky marketing tactic, and I don't agree with it.

Squelchtone

[nickmannnxx]

Squelchtone, thats crazy that they get away with calling a lock grade 1 if all of its parts arent grade 1. Thats like calling bread organic because one of the ingredients used to make it was. I really cant stand newer schlage kik cylinders (ones with T pins and floating spring covers). I have 5 or so and they are all somewhat crunchy. I dont know how else to describe it. I really like the older schage cylinders I have though.

[Zenophryk]

Nick, There's the hole marketing departments are hoping you'll fall into. Squelchtone didn't say they are marketing them as grade 1 locks, just that they are "made with grade 1 parts" (hoping your mind will ignore that semantics and just remember the grade 1 part)
And I would bet that the bread doesn't say it's organic, but rather "made with organic ingredients"
And if you're looking for a new car, all the dealers in my area at least, promise to "accept all credit applications, no matter what credit problems you've had in the past"
And the most horrible marketing loophole ever. Did you know that seedless oranges can legally have as many as 5 seeds? Who makes these laws and how can we fight back?

-Zenophryk

[nickmannnxx]

Zeno, dont even get me started on seedless fruits contaning seeds. I was produce manager for a large Giant Eagle for 8 years. We sold a thousand seedless watermelons per week, during some of the busy weeks of summer. I would get between 20-30 people a week who were not just upset, but legitimately angry that those watermelons contained seeds. Some of them contain hundreds.

All of the BS I have heard about schlage recently has made me even happier about switching my locks to mul t lock.

[billdeserthills]

Squelchtone, thats crazy that they get away with calling a lock grade 1 if all of its parts arent grade 1. Thats like calling bread organic because one of the ingredients used to make it was. I really cant stand newer schlage kik cylinders (ones with T pins and floating spring covers). I have 5 or so and they are all somewhat crunchy. I dont know how else to describe it. I really like the older schage cylinders I have though.

The real question here if manufacturers are indeed selling inferior products as grade 1 is, Do any consumers know what grade 1 actually is?
I really doubt it, I have met many clients with Emtek hardware who are sorry they paid soo much money for a pos product that isn't even
a listed grade 3 product, but I haven't yet met one client who knows what grade 3 means...