urgent legal question - mailing lock pick set

[Squelchtone]

If an idiot purchased a lock picking set online to be mailed from Canada to a US state in which it is illegal, what would happen to the set/buyer?

[oddyssea]

This is the state law, can somebody please explain:

Code of Virginia - § 18.2-94 - Possession of burglarious tools, etc. If any person has in his possession any tools, implements or outfit, with intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny, upon conviction thereof he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. The possession of such burglarious tools, implements or outfit by any person other than a licensed dealer, shall be prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny.

"The possession of burglarious tools by one not a licensed dealer is alone, by the statute, made prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny. The presumption, however, cuts off no defense nor interposes any obstacle to a contest of the facts, and 'relieves neither the court nor the jury of the duty to determine all of the questions of fact from the weight of the whole evidence. 'It is merely a rule of evidence and not the determination of a fact * * *.' When possession is proven, the burden of going forward with the evidence shifts to the defendant, but this does not shift the burden of ultimate proof, or deprive defendant of his right to have the jury instructed on the presumption of innocence….
" In other words, when a person, other than a licensed dealer, has been shown to have in his possession burglarious tools, the burden of making a reasonable explanation to overcome the statutory presumption is shifted to him…." NANCE v. COM.

[Squelchtone]

[Squelchtone]

hurry, they're coming!

[Squelchtone]

Nothing will happen, but next time your son orders picks online, at least use a US based online company to save on shipping. The Virginia/Washington DC laws I believe are related to the Watergate hotel scandal where lock picking was used to get entry into the offices, but most states have similar laws where you cannot own picks if you have the INTENT to commit a crime. If you are just a hobby picker who likes puzzles and sitting around on the couch picking a lock while watching tv, then it is not illegal. Some places however such as DC and NYC is it actually illegal even if you do not have any plans to commit a crime.

EDIT: so once they arrive, I wouldn't walk around in public with them in my pocket, keep them strictly at home, otherwise: "shall be prima facie evidence of an intent to commit"

Hope this helps, and hope you enjoy our humor as well =)
Squelchtone

[ViennaMike]

Some places however such as DC and NYC is it actually illegal even if you do not have any plans to commit a crime.

Not sure why you say this. DC law requires intent. See DC Code 22–2501. Possession of implements of crime; penalty. which states:

"No person shall have in his or her possession in the District any instrument, tool, or implement for picking locks or pockets, with the intent to use such instrument, tool, or implement to commit a crime. Whoever violates this section shall be imprisoned for not more than 180 days and may be fined not more than and, in addition, may be fined not more than the amount set forth in § 22-3571.01, unless the violation occurs after he or she has been convicted in the District of a violation of this section or of a felony, either in the District or another jurisdiction, in which case he or she shall be imprisoned for not less than one year nor more than 5 years and, in addition, may be fined not more than the amount set forth in § 22-3571.01."

[Squelchtone]

Some places however such as DC and NYC is it actually illegal even if you do not have any plans to commit a crime.

Not sure why you say this. DC law requires intent. See DC Code 22–2501. Possession of implements of crime; penalty. which states:

Looks like I am wrong. I probably said it because someone who I trusted told me that ever since the Watergate Hotel break in back in the 70's lock picks were made illegal in DC for obvious political reasons. I guess that is not the case, so thank you for pointing out the current code.



As in the original reply by someone else and taken from the TOOOL website it does appear that in Vienna, Virginia, just a hop from DC, they *are* illegal to the point where mere possession without intent no longer flies and the burden of proof would be on the possessor to counter prima facie evidence of intent


Code of Virginia - § 18.2-94 - Possession of burglarious tools, etc. If any person has in his possession any tools, implements or outfit, with intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny, upon conviction thereof he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. The possession of such burglarious tools, implements or outfit by any person other than a licensed dealer, shall be prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny.

"The possession of burglarious tools by one not a licensed dealer is alone, by the statute, made prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny. The presumption, however, cuts off no defense nor interposes any obstacle to a contest of the facts, and 'relieves neither the court nor the jury of the duty to determine all of the questions of fact from the weight of the whole evidence. 'It is merely a rule of evidence and not the determination of a fact * * *.' When possession is proven, the burden of going forward with the evidence shifts to the defendant, but this does not shift the burden of ultimate proof, or deprive defendant of his right to have the jury instructed on the presumption of innocence….
" In other words, when a person, other than a licensed dealer, has been shown to have in his possession burglarious tools, the burden of making a reasonable explanation to overcome the statutory presumption is shifted to him…." NANCE v. COM.

(Possession "by one not a licensed dealer" is considered prima facie evidence of intent to commit a crime. Our lawyers could find no definition of "licensed dealer.")


Thanks for the reply,
Squelchtone

[Silverado]

The way I look at laws like these; lots of grey area so they can apply charges based on ubiquitous evidence or material.
A screwdriver (or any other hand tool) can be easily considered an implement of crime. Unless you're caught committing a crime with the object, it can't really be considered an implement of crime. And then everything comes down to interpretation and how the prosecution and defense presents their case.
I would venture to say laws like this are in place so additional charges can be applied after the primary charge (which would likely be burglary/theft/etc.).

I am neither a lawyer nor claiming that this is official word of law. I have had this conversation with a lawyer and they agreed that there are plenty of laws in place to be used as add-ons to primary charges. I would guess it's easier this way so the accused can opt for a plea bargain to drop the more serious charges and accept lesser charges, thusly accepting a lesser punishment to repay their debt to society (or bureaucrats, however you look at it).

The laws in PA are similar, there are laws about implements of crime, but they're called "summary offenses" which means you cannot be directly charged with "possession of implement of crime" unless you are first charged with a crime. Seatbelts used to be a summary offense where you could not be cited with violation of a seatbelt law unless you had already violated a different traffic law (that is now different and you can be cited for not wearing a seatbelt without any other violation).

Either way I don't think anyone will be getting in trouble for owning lockpicks just for owning lockpicks. Just don't carry them around while you're skulking around your neighbors backdoor looking suspicious.

[name-TBA]

I live on the border of Pa, and though not a locksmith yet, I just wear my black locksmith cap everywhere, making certain cops see me walking in it during my walks. I got literally nothing but burgulary tools at home. I'm gonna have to have the words "Locksmith" tattooed on my forehead, I'm always nervous I will get home, and police will be like "we got a tipoff, look what we got here!".

I have a lot of stuff generally unrelated whatsoever to crime though too, like latches, screws, pinning kits. Knowing them, they will probable claim the pins are midget bullets stored illegally. I'm less worried about here in Western PA than moving eventually to eastern PA, I'm actually wanting to move outside of DC, I'm a big fan of the Library of Congress.

Now.... I'm annoyed. Too many lawyers in DC, and I have Watergate precedents. I really don't think you can get any place too serious with pinlocks, sure they have the highest top of the line stuff under heavy security.... but then again, my time in the Army suggests to me a lot of that stuff likely is the cheapest, weakest stuff on the market. I'm guaranteed to get blamed even if nowhere near by, cause that's just the luck I have.

I know PA has no licence requirements, but is there a way to legally register as a locksmith in that state so I'm not left dangling receiptes in front of a judge trying to prove I'm the real thing just starting off, not a criminal mastermind?

[billdeserthills]

Why not simply get a subscription to The National Locksmith or even The Locksmith Ledger magazines?
Then you can get a bond card, and place your thumbprint or picture upon it & have it laminated?
That will give you a locksmith ID and a bond card & also make it easier to convince new distributors
that you are an actual locksmith

[Silverado]

I know PA has no licence requirements, but is there a way to legally register as a locksmith in that state so I'm not left dangling receiptes in front of a judge trying to prove I'm the real thing just starting off, not a criminal mastermind?

Why not simply get a subscription to The National Locksmith or even The Locksmith Ledger magazines?
Then you can get a bond card, and place your thumbprint or picture upon it & have it laminated?
That will give you a locksmith ID and a bond card & also make it easier to convince new distributors
that you are an actual locksmith

Exactly this. I'm planning on doing this so I can venture further into locksmithing. I got my feet wet, but I'm going to need a business license and bonding if I plan to take it seriously.

[Ralph_Goodman]

Some places however such as DC and NYC is it actually illegal even if you do not have any plans to commit a crime.

Do you have the law for NYC handy anywhere? Because I can only find the law for New York state.

New York Consolidated Laws of New York - PEN Title I - Article 140 - § 140.35 - Possession of burglar's tools. A person is guilty of possession of burglar's tools when he possesses any tool, instrument or other article adapted, designed or commonly used for committing or facilitating offenses involving forcible entry into premises, or offenses involving larceny by a physical taking, or offenses involving theft of services …, under circumstances evincing an intent to use or knowledge that some person intends to use the same in the commission of an offense of such character.

I see on Wikipedia that NYC requires certification, but I am struggling to find the precise legislation to corroborate that.

Thanks!

[DangerDane]

While I am unsure what the danish police's stance is on finding lockpicks etc in a car or on a person I am unsure of. I do however know that if you are caught driving around with a baseball bat in your trunk its considered a dangerous weapon since noone rides around just with a bat unless its with the intent to hit someone with it. Pair the bat with a ball and a catchers mitt and you are a ok >.<.

And I suspect the same goes with lockpicks etc. If you are pulled over and have a fair and reasonable explanation for your whereabouts at that time, and for carrying around picks etc they would most likely let you go. If you are uncomplaiant, or can't give a satisfactory response you might get taken to the station for further questioning...

[billdeserthills]

I live on the border of Pa, and though not a locksmith yet, I just wear my black locksmith cap everywhere, making certain cops see me walking in it during my walks. I got literally nothing but burgulary tools at home. I'm gonna have to have the words "Locksmith" tattooed on my forehead, I'm always nervous I will get home, and police will be like "we got a tipoff, look what we got here!".

I have a lot of stuff generally unrelated whatsoever to crime though too, like latches, screws, pinning kits. Knowing them, they will probable claim the pins are midget bullets stored illegally. I'm less worried about here in Western PA than moving eventually to eastern PA, I'm actually wanting to move outside of DC, I'm a big fan of the Library of Congress.

Now.... I'm annoyed. Too many lawyers in DC, and I have Watergate precedents. I really don't think you can get any place too serious with pinlocks, sure they have the highest top of the line stuff under heavy security.... but then again, my time in the Army suggests to me a lot of that stuff likely is the cheapest, weakest stuff on the market. I'm guaranteed to get blamed even if nowhere near by, cause that's just the luck I have.

I know PA has no licence requirements, but is there a way to legally register as a locksmith in that state so I'm not left dangling receiptes in front of a judge trying to prove I'm the real thing just starting off, not a criminal mastermind?

It's easy to become a legit-looking locksmith, anything that looks legit to your customer will convince them you are the real thing. For example look at the multitude of scammer locksmiths. In my area alone there must be over 40 different telephone numbers, all answered with the familiar 'Call Center' greeting I have heard. You can get a website too & get registered with google, bing and hundreds of other sites for free advertising. You can get flyers printed and pay some kids to hand them out, lots of ways to start making money practically overnight as a mobile business

[dontlook]

TOOOL has thriving chapters in DC and NYC.

The DC chapter is run by someone who by day is a lawyer. The group has shown up to do presentations/workshops for:
The Pentagon
The National Cyber Security Council (in the WhiteHouse)
The International Monetary Fund (IMF)

My understanding of NYC law(I am not a resident) is that it is illegal to pick a lock you don't possess, even with the owner's permission unless you are a licensed locksmith. Licensure requires sponsorship and a hefty check or graduation from one of a couple area schools. Nite0wl could give us better details.

All of this is anecdotal, but hopefully it makes folks feel a little better.