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What's happening here?

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

What's happening here?

Postby 99atlantic » 2 Feb 2005 1:15

Perhaps somebdoy can explain to me why this is the way it is.

Okay, i'll take one of my kwikset deadlifts (6pin) and de-pin it down to 3pin. Now, if I try to pick the lock from the back (3rd) pin forward (to the 1st pin), the last pin won't pick. No matter how long I spend on it, it just won't pick, it will keep springing up. I can apply a zillion pounds of torque to the lock while keeping the pin pressed down (to try to 'trap' it) but it bounces up and doesn't jam. Now, I start at the front of the lock, apply a proper amount of torque, 1st pin picks nicely, and then the last pin picks nicely.

Okay, so same lock, now I add in the 4th pin. If I pick the 1st pin, nothing - it refuses to pick, regardless of time, technique, whatever. Even if I hold it (1st pin) down, apply a zillion pounds of troque to the lock, it still bounces up, not at all jammed. However, now i apply the proper torque to the lock and start at the back, the last pin picks perfectly, then i goto the 1st pin and bam, it's easy to pick.

So basically my question is two-fold

1 - I know in locks 1 (or more) of the pins will initially bind better than the others; but why must these pins be picked 1st, and, if they arn't, why do other pins refuse to pick 1st?

2 - Why does adding in 1 pin change which pins initially bind better (e.g., w/ 3 pin, the 1st pin binds easiest; with 4 pin, the last one is easiest, the first one becomes the hardest hten)
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Postby 99atlantic » 2 Feb 2005 1:16

edit from above - in the last line, i didn't mean that the 1st one is the hardest to pick, I mean that it's impossible to pick first without binding the last pin.
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 1:56

99atlantic wrote:impossible to pick


i will bite your n00b head off!!!
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Postby 99atlantic » 2 Feb 2005 1:58

skold wrote:
99atlantic wrote:impossible to pick


i will bite your n00b head off!!!


:x

well, it is. Seriously, if i push it down and then apply as much torque as I can to the lock in an effort to jam the pin nothing happens - it just bounces right up. So There's no way in hell it will pick.
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 2:01

No, you just need to practice picking locks...
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Postby Eschatos » 2 Feb 2005 2:13

Read the MIT guide, pages 9 and 10 (good diagram) and then pages 19 and 20 (another diagram)

I will not type the reason in this forum, as it is exruciatingly simple and pretty much common knowledge. Know your MIT Guide!
Save a lock, pick a nose!
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Postby digital_blue » 2 Feb 2005 2:15

Yeesh! Tough crowd! :) Ok, let me try something a tad more helpful, perhaps. :) I will say that it sounds as though you ought to review the MIT guide to get a better handle on what's going on here.

The situation you described is a bit convoluted, and I want to try and make this simple. The bottom line is that when you add a new pin, everything can change. The dynamics of that pin in the chamber you put it in will affect how the lock responds. Perhaps, for example, the 4th pin you add is slightly larger in diameter than the others (due to the mechanical imperfections). It stands to reason that it will bind first. The same could be true if the pin chamber of the fourth pin is slightly misaligned. Anyway, the same truth will always remain, that the pin that offers the most resistance under *light* tension is the one that will set first. (Please guys, I'm trying to keep this simple... so don't prove me wrong here.) ;)

When you are new to this there are so many things that will trip you up until you've learned the tricks. Falsely setting the bottom pin at/above the shear line will mess with you at first. Heaven help you if you come upon a spool or serrated pin early on. :) Either way, read read read, and, most importantly, there's no substitute for "time in". Keep practicing!

Hope this is more helpful than flaming. :)

db
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 2:23

but flaming is fun :(

Het combination plays more of a role than pin widths though...
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Postby digital_blue » 2 Feb 2005 2:26

Yes, you're right skold, but I was just trying to give some examples and point another enthusiast in the right direction.

Cheers!

db
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 2:30

If one cannot learn for thy self. thy shall never learn...sound shakespearian doesn't it :wink:
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Postby digital_blue » 2 Feb 2005 2:31

Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 2:36

I do not bite my thumb at you sir, but i do bite my thumb...
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Postby WhiteHat » 2 Feb 2005 3:27

for crying out loud guys......


the pins bind in a certain order - it doesn't have to be 1,2,3,4,5 - it could be 3,2,4,1,5.

so when you've got the first three pins in, then the first pin picks fine - so just say the order is 1,3,2 - but when you add the 4th pin it binds first because that hole always bound first - it just didn't have a pin in it. so the actual binding order is 4,1,3,2.

if you try and pick the lock the opposite direction, the order will be 2,3,1,4.

it's a common question as for some reason most people assume that the pins should bind from front to back or vice versa, but this is most often not the case. I believe the reason for this is that the holes are drilled individually and not with a 5 drill bit mechanism - if they were drilled simultaneously, then the pins would always bind in order.

the skilll required with single pin picking is identifying the state that each pin is in and acting accordingly.

the four pin states while applying torque:
-------------------------
1- normal pin at rest
springy up, springy down
leave this pin alone, or increase pressure if they're all at rest

2- driver jammed in shear line (ready to set, or false set)
feels stiff / security driver turns cylinder 'backwards' when lifted
this pin is ready to be set

3- key pin jammed in shear line (false set)
stiff, key pin does not return down with gravity or tapping
start over, or reduce pressure / turn the cylinder back a tiny bit with your pick until the key unjams (reverse picking)

4- driver at rest above shear line (set)
moves up with no resistance, stops hard, then falls back down limply. turns cylinder 'backwards' if forced. rattley.
this pin has done his duty, let him rest!


enjoy! and don't get discouraged by flames. scold is all bark and no bite.
except perhaps his own thumb for some reason.... :roll:
Oh look! it's 2016!
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Postby skold » 2 Feb 2005 3:34

scold is all bark and no bite.
except perhaps his own thumb for some reason....


Too True, whitehat..

yes, my thumb..my school is a shakespeare loving school.. :cry:
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yer problem is

Postby raimundo » 2 Feb 2005 9:41

agent 99, what are you using troque for, thats only used to suck the fluid out of dead bodies and suirt embalming fluid in. Don't you watch CSI, queer eye for the dead guy.
Wake up and smell the Kafka!!!
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