Interesting Design - Extremely Difficult to Pick - Advices

[LittlePeaceful]

Hi everyone,

a short preface: after a year of amatorial lockpicking activities my level got to (I suppose) Intermediate, I could pick medium quality euro cylinders and padlocks with security pins. Roughly six month ago I gave up just because here in China I couldn't find anymore challenging lock. The quality is usually so bad that simply no lock is difficult to pick, whichever the design is, reflecting the general (tragic ) conditions of Chinese engineering.
Lately I noticed that more than half the bycycles around and even apartments where using the same kind of lock, a strange non-axial dimple design, so I decided to get one, and soon my opinions about Chinese designers and my lockpicking capabilities where badly shaken.

The lock uses a single sidebar design with single pins, no pin stack, no shear line.

The lock is the following one (sorry for the bad picture quality).

Front:


General View:


Top View - Sidebar Extended:


Top View - Sidebar Retracted:


Side View - Sidebar Retracted:


Back View - Plug Milling:


I have to say that the machining is not as bad as the usual chinese one and the non-axial key position creating an unconvenient circular movement make the lock more suitable for byke locks with a rotation of 60 degrees that for houses but this could be corrected with a suitable key design. I find the intersting part is the sidebar mechanism.

By what I understand (this is the first sidebar design I'm playing with so what follows could be completely wrong) what makes this design special compared with usual sidebar design (Medeco or BiLock style) are the following points (bit of rendundancy):

1. the sidebar is not pushed out by the springs, but pushed in; so when there are no pins in the plug the sidebar is retracted; as soon as a pin is in the plug the sidebar is extended;
2. the sidebar milling in the plug is not belveled;
3. the part of the sidebar that engage the plug isn't belveled too;
4. the sidebar is retracted by the springs only when:
4a. all the pins hollow parts are aligned with the bar;
4b. no torque is applied to the plug;
5. when torque is applied even with no pin and no springs the sidebar is not pushed in but instead is catched.

The result is that as soon as I try to apply tension (8) torque) to the plug the sidebar gets immediately catched and I can't get any pin bind (the sidebar is catched by the plug and the friction applied by the sidebar to the side of the pins isn't anyway increased).

My understanding is that for the same reason both impressioning and bumping shouldn't be possible.

I tried to remove pins. So far I couldn't even pick this lock with two pins . I could do it with one pin but just because I reversed the tecnique (e.g lifting the pin to some point and then try to rotate the plug).

Sorry for my english I hope the explanation was clear enough I would be pleased to get opinions and advices. Especially if they prove that my comphrension is wrong and the lock can be someway picked.

In case of any of the board gurus gets interested to the problem I'm available to try (chinese customs allowing ) to ship one of these for further analisys.

[master in training]

i'd love to give you some help with this, but i've never seen anything like it before. it certainly looks secure and very odd for picking. all i can suggest is searching the site for sidebars and things like that.

[TOWCH]

Sounds like the lock is binding the pins for you. If there is enough pressure, you should be able to pick this lock with just a pick. If not then foil impressioning might work. Even if the lock isn't binding the pins, it would probably be possible to feel for the correct height and from there decode it. If the sidebar is magnetic you might be able to increase binding force with a magnet, or for a more destructive method you could drill a hole behind the sidebar and apply tension from there. Just throwing some ideas out there.

[master in training]

re these things? just a ballpark figure in any currency to buy one and post it to the UK? i'll work it out in pounds. they look like really interesting locks.

thank you,

~ Master in Training ~

[master in training]

grrrr, stupid pc, that was supposed to say "how much are these things?"

[raimundo]

Wow, after seeing it an reading the discription, i thought that some sort of bumping key might do the trick, but you rule that out, maybe the foil impressions that someone mentioned, If you work with it and think through the problem, perhaps you will be the first person known to LP101 to open it, and that would be worth a prize. I'll just have to read through the post again and study the photos to see if I understand it completely. this is interesting.

[kehveli]

Hi all!

Here is my thought of a way to decode/pick the lock.

Don't limit your thinking to using tension to bind pins. You can use it to lock the sidebar where it is (thus locking the binding pins in place if they are at the correct height).

This is just theory though.

My method is based on 'probing' the remainig pins for each height. When one pin is probed you continue the probe all the un-probed pins (while still maintaining the state of the already decoded pins) until the lock opens.

1. Lift all pins to first height (dont do any tensioning here)
2. Apply aggressive tension
3. Let go of the pins (maintain the aggressive tension)
4. The pins will fall down (if one doesn't fall down and stays at the set height, you know that this pin's correct height is the one probed and you have decoded this pin, see below on how to proceed then)
5. Release tension
6. Lift all pins to the next height to probe
7. Go to step 2

After you have decoded one pin, then do the procedure but with lifting all BUT THE ALREADY DECODED pins to the heights. Set the decoded pins to their correct positions.



The tool required to do this would probably be VERY hard to manufacture because of you should be able to control each pin's height at the same time. It would probably need to be a sputnik-tool-like.

The advantage of this method would be the fact that the user does not need to have very sensitive fingers. It would just be enough to feel if a pin is locked at a certain position.

What do you think of my method suggestion? Should I make an animation of this procedure?

[LittlePeaceful]

hi,

first thanks to everybody for the interesting comments and advices.

@master in training:
I searched the website and the information available on the net but I couldn't find any reference to a similar design.
The lock in the byke version is sold here for around 3 Euros, I didn't find so far a place to buy the (euro) cylinder version but I suppose it'll be around 6-7 Euros, in case you are interested I can try to look for it. About the shipping cost I have really no idea, I suppose the byke version more expensive due to the weight. Using the Chinese Post could be quite cheap but slow and relatively unreliable. If you (or anybody else) confirm your interest I can get these information.

@TOWCH
The sidebar springs apply a small force, not enough to keep the pins in position, even because the contact points between pin and the sidebar are belveled. Unfortunately the sidebar is not ferromagnetic, that was a good idea .. .
I agree about decoding (see kehveli procedure).
About foil impressioning: the shape of the keyway makes the foil shaping difficult (has be shaped to an unsupported peak) and I think an extremely soft material would be needed due to the weak springs, unfortunately here I can't find anything similar.

@raimundo:
When in resting position the pins touch (actually press onto) the inner side of the shell. So I thought that direct hit with a hammer on the outer side could act as an extermely effective bumping tool. So far I got no result with that I think it's due to the fact that the pins jump togheter and form no shearline. But here is my bumping technique that could be wrong.

@kehveli:
I think your idea is good and could work. There is really no room to work from the bottom because corrisponding to the pins in position "9" (lowest ones) the key has almost a hole. The tool would have to work from the sides, I would think to 3 "L" shaped tools per side one for each pin. Tools and machining required put it out of my possibilities and skills.
Your drawing is correct, the only difference is that the contact points between pin and the sidebar are belveled.


Anyway I'm still trying. I was thinking to some other way to push the sidebar towards the pins, for example pumping air between the plug and the shell but I have no way to test it.

Again: if anybody is interested to get one I can try to set it up.

Thanks.

[digital_blue]

LittlePeaceful: I too would be interested in one of these locks. I would have responded via PM but unfortunately that service is currently out of order. I am in Canada. Please let me know if you would be willing to purchase and ship one of these to me and we can work out the details.

Thanks,

db

[kehveli]

You could also use a thin-wire method that directly abuses the tolerances in the lock. In the method you slide a thin wire (or other piece of metal) inbetween the pin and the pin chamber. Using this wire you can feel for the dent in the pin and such you can derive the code for the key. This method works in many locks, even some high security ones.

You say that the tolerances/machining is "not as bad as the usual chinese one". Maybe this means that it still is a bit bad. The worse it is, the easier it is to use this method.

[SFGOON]

It may be worth your while to see what restrictions exist as far as possible key combos go. From the looks of those pins the tolerance is fairly low, and with some patience it may be possible to make something akin to a profile pick set. There may also be a way to simply push the sidebar back from the outside, bypassing the locking mechanism. Creativity will play a big part in your ability to crack this thing - it seems clear that traditional pin tumbler type picking won't work here.... What an interesting find. I'll look through my LSS and see if I can find something similiar for you.

[GateTwelve]

Hmmm. I would have to agree with TOWCH. It basically boils down to a normal lock (ie one pin binding at a time). From what you replied with, I assume that you can find the binding pin, it just won't stay set because of tiny amount of pressure that the sidebar is utilizing. I would frist start raking it, hopefully to set two pins at the same time. This would allow the sidebar to retract further inside the plug. Maybe that would actually help keep the sidebar retracted.

I'm also thinking of how my medeco reacted to me. If pins 5,6, and 7 were aligned with the sidebar, upon applying tension, the sidebar would drop in to those pins only. This caused the sidebar to no longer be interacting with the plug at a parallel angel, but rather at a +/- angle (half of the sidebar in the plug, half outside). I only find this interesting to this situation because once the sidebar is no longer parallel to the plug, the teeth that enter into the plug experience a very small amount of friction on the slots which they fit through to enter the plug. This amount of friction shouldn't be extreme to the point of keeping the sidebar from retracting, but just enough to HELP keep it in place. Then again, the amount of friction on your lock could very well differ from my own.

So if by raking, you were able to set a couple pins on one end of the plug(1 and 2, 5 and 6) you get get just enough friction on those slots to keep the sidebar set for those pins.

[GateTwelve]

If pins 5,6, and 7 were aligned with the sidebar, upon applying tension, the sidebar would drop in to those pins only.

I meant to say "pins 4, 5, and 6"

[kehveli]

I would frist start raking it, hopefully to set two pins at the same time. This would allow the sidebar to retract further inside the plug. Maybe that would actually help keep the sidebar retracted.

But wouldn't you then have two springs fighting against one? I mean, the pins you'd have set have beveled cuts and springs pushing them down. As there are 2 pins set there are 2 springs pushing the sidebar out and 1 spring pushing the sidebar in. Thus I believe the 2 springs would win and the pins would not stay in their positions.

[digital_blue]

This seems to me to be a matter of balancing the slightest amount of tension with a gentle raking. As LittlePeaceful mentioned, tension seems to cuase the whole thing to bind up, but my thought is that if it is the very slightest amount, it might allow the pins to bind.

Failing that I might think to some sort of custom profile picks with a gentle bouncing of the tension wrench.

I am eagerly looking forward to getting ahold of one of these to work on.

db