product called pickbuster

[Schuyler]

Something else I'm curious about....has the product been tested in masterkeyed cylinders?

Masterkeying adds a lower level of security to most conventional pin tumbler systems already. Would the application of PB, increase the security aspect of masterkeying, reduce security, inhibit key changes etc etc?

That's a great question. Any chance of pickbuster hanging up smaller master wafers in their chambers? I would be very surprised if this were the case, as I don't imagine this stuff clogs up enough to prevent spring pressure keeping the wafers in place, but it's a possibility...

[horsefeathers]

regarding master keyed systems.....

I am not necessarily defending UAP or this product, but I think it is aimed at the more domestic householder and his/her home doors as a way of reassuring them about reducing any succesful burglary attempts. These of course are not going to be masterkeyed as a rule.

But a good Q to ask and interesting to know answer.

regards

[zeke79]

UAP,

First of all I want to thank you for sticking around the forums and answering the barrage of questions along handling negative feedback/questions in a positive manner. This is exactly what the locksport community wants! We want manufacturers to listen to our concerns as alot of us here have a high degree of experience and expertise when it comes to picking and bypassing locks along with a good working knowledge many high security locks.

In one of the original pickbuster threads I mentioned using brake cleaner to flush the locks. In my mind, I had no doubt that this would work for atleast a short period of time. It has been stated in the thread now that it does in fact work.

I am personally very interested in conducting some of my own tests with this product but have abstained from that simply because I am in the US. If you are willing to send me enough pickbuster to treat 120 locks I would personally conduct video tests in different scenerios such as bench testing new untreated locks, bench testing treated locks and repeating the test after the product has had 3 months of sitting time with the lock being operated 4 times per day. The other test off the top of my head would be a padlock that is treated and then left exposed to the elements for no less than 90 days and operated with a key 4 times per day(key will be kept in pocket so as to hold in pocket lint/dirt/etc. All final testing of the locks would be done on video with a timeline of 5 minutes to open the lock. i will also show picking results of before application and after. Locks used in the testing will be half new with the lock fully dismantled for application and the other half will be used locks treated when the lock is assembed following the manufacturers recommended method of application (please supply directions with the product if you send it.

If this interests you then I would be more than happy to conduct the tests in an unbiased fashion and supply the results here. All I ask for is free samples of the product shipped to the US. I would need atleast enough to treat 120 locks. With enough product to treat 120 locks, I would treat 40. In the case I were able to bump a cylinder I could reapply and repeat the test two to five additional times to ensure the method I used was in fact a true opening and not a situation of luck. Along with testing on the bench, some locks will be testing in a mounted position. They may not be mounted on an acutal door but will be in the same upright position they would be in a true installation. I am also more than willing to test cylinders that you supply to me if that is something you want to do. All I ask for if you supply the cylinders is that you provide a set of working keys and 4 blanks for each lock so that I can cut my own bumpkeys for the locks. Space and depth info would also be required for any locks you send to me so I can test both the minimal movement bumping method along with the pull back one space method of bumping.

In this test, I also plan to test locks that both contain std top pins, security top pins (spools, mushrooms, and spools) and a combination of all. I would also test locks masterkeyed to differing degrees. The videos could be setup as you wish. I could video the application of the product and the end testing of the locks. I could also provide pictures of the locks in their field testing area such as a dusty road location, a location that sees alot of water, etc. My plans are to use this product on kwikset brand or schlage brand locks since they are for the most part very easily bumped.

This is alot of product to send out to someone over the internet so I will take no offense if you turn down the offer and no one on this site will take your decision not to send the product as a sign of not having faith in the product working as advertised.

Please keep in mind that these tests will take quite a bit of time for preparation and also alot of time exposing the locks to the elements and ALOT of time putting the results together along with finding a suitable host for the videos (not sure if my current host account has enough space left for the amount of video we would be shooting)

Contact me by pm if you are interested in this and I will get you my shipping details.

[UAPLTD]

zeke79
Thanks for the post.

Yes I am willing to ship to you free of charge the Pickbuster amount you require. I can see your input, and that of the rest of this forum to be beneficial to the product, and the replies to date have already led to a positive testing straetgy from Almore.

So send me the details and I will ship to you.......our only concern with shipping to the USA is sending fluids (US have a big problem with imported fluids following the UK airport alert last year). So we would ship Fed Ex with export paperwork.

I will also send the new bottle with a controlled dispensed amount per pump.....0.2ml.

[UAPLTD]

Masterkeyed Locks : Pickbuster is aimed at the domestic market rather than the commercial. We sell a few masterkeyed locks and all to hotels and the like.

The post from zeke79 has suggested that these could be tested and so I would be happy to see the results.

[UAPLTD]

Insurance Position: We have spoken to a few Members of the Chartered Insurance Institute.

Their comment is that Lock Bumping is hard to prove, and the insurance position is that Bumped Locks would not be insured. Their view is that it is irrelevant whether the locks are Insurance Approved or not. A bumped lock leaves no real evidence of forced entry and hence insurance would not pay out.

So applying Pickbuster in those circumstances makes no difference as to the mechanical and insurance aspect.

The current view is that the only circumstance that Pickbuster may make an effect is a break in from Picking the lock. However we are told that the incidence of Lock Picking versus the other forms of breaking in is very small. And it is not discounted that Pickbuster would affect the insurance.

We expect an official quote from the IBI next week.

[globallockytoo]

Masterkeyed Locks : Pickbuster is aimed at the domestic market rather than the commercial. We sell a few masterkeyed locks and all to hotels and the like.

The post from zeke79 has suggested that these could be tested and so I would be happy to see the results.

Whilst I understand that the domestic market is the primary aim here, master keyed locks are being found more often in the domestic housing market...especially in rental accomodation and temporary accomodations.

Even the individual homeowner likes to enable a master key system at times for a cleaner or gardener to access one door or gate only, it is becoming quite frequent actually. There are many instances worldwide of accomodation in communities or estates where facilities management is used to cater to maintenance and repairs, even with independantly owned or tennanted properties. I find it unusual that this rather large section of the market would have been overlooked.

Your answer does not indicate whether or not master keyed cylinders formed a part of your marketing plan or your testing regime

[UAPLTD]

Master-keyed locks.

To be honest we have not considered Master-keyed systems in our marketing plan.

The reason for this is that we believe our main market currently to be UK domestic properties where the use of Master-keys is almost non existant.

To give credence to this, we imported 360,000 cylinders in the last 12 months, of those just some 150 were Master Keys, and these were for a sheltered accomodation block.

Nevertheless I have agreed to have Master Keyed locks be tested and the results published by one of this forum's members, so hopefully that will satisfy everyone's (and mine) curiosity.

[zeke79]

After a short chat with someone I know who is in the law profession it was recommended that I not do any testing on this product. After hearing possible problems by doing so, I am backing out of my offer. I have sent a PM to UAPLTD explaining the situation.

I apologize to anyone out there who was looking forward to these tests.

[Schuyler]

After a short chat with someone I know who is in the law profession it was recommended that I not do any testing on this product. After hearing possible problems by doing so, I am backing out of my offer. I have sent a PM to UAPLTD explaining the situation.

I apologize to anyone out there who was looking forward to these tests.

mmm, that is disappointing. Any public details on why it was recommended you not do the testing? If for not other reason than to provide other folks who might want to volunteer with an idea of what they could be in for.

[UAPLTD]

A quick aside on US litigious nature..... I was in Florida 3 weeks ago and had to have emergency root canal treatment. In the UK it would be 1 hour, absolute max. In Florida it was 7 hours over 3 days, and I have never been given so much chorine to spit in my life.......the reason:- the dentist was fearful of litigation if I got an infection.........the cynic in me suspects it was also something to do with the $1,500 he screwed out of me as well.

[zeke79]

After a short chat with someone I know who is in the law profession it was recommended that I not do any testing on this product. After hearing possible problems by doing so, I am backing out of my offer. I have sent a PM to UAPLTD explaining the situation.

I apologize to anyone out there who was looking forward to these tests.

mmm, that is disappointing. Any public details on why it was recommended you not do the testing? If for not other reason than to provide other folks who might want to volunteer with an idea of what they could be in for.

I simply cannot state that I will "test" a product since I cannot provide a controlled environment to do so. My test results could affect the product image in a negative way if my results were skewed from poor testing conditions etc. That is about all I will say on the forums.

I have a pm in with UAPLTD about another route to take so this is not necessarily dead in the water yet.

[zeke79]

As of now I will be doing informal research of the product for my own learning experiences. I will however be posting my OPINIONS of the product here.

I will let everyone know when the product arrives and also when research for my own education starts.

The results I post will be just that, my results and are in no way to be taken as formal testing results.

[UAPLTD]

Brake Cleaner: I have noted the comments previously made and we have tested it using a competent, trained guy working for Almore. This guy has been trained but is not a professional. I understand that he is known to the ICL and is described as a very good amateur.

This makes him a lot better than most burglars, but not as competant as most of the people in this forum.

He used a cylinder he uses for police demonstrations which he can bump in 2-3 taps. So this is a cylinder known to him and he knows how to bump it.

He also used Lockey's method and found that the lock did feel different for a few seconds, but he couldn't bump the lock. This was repeated several times.

Whilst this is not conclusive it does point to a skill level required to bump using brake cleaner, and the skill level required has to be pretty high and not under-estimated.

Our tests continue.

[Chris B]

This thread has gone too far.

I have, along with many other locksmiths in the UK, been following this thread, and will make a one off statement, I will not be drawn into any further discussion and feel that some things need to be said.

I have read that Zeke and others have offered to do some tests, however with the greatest of respect to them, I have already carried out an extensive series of tests some time ago.
At that time of experimenting with Pickbuster I had no conflict of interest in carrying out such tests, some of the results I did post on a closed professional locksmith forum, and some were given to the MLA and various interested authorities.

Some of the results were and still remain deliberately withheld because I considered this information to be ‘not in the public interest’. I feel that it was foolhardy of certain persons on this forum to post information here on this open forum on test results that could have far reaching effects on the security of cylinders that are treated with Pickbuster, and may even be the cause of the criminal element experimenting with oils and greases to enable illegal entry. I will not under any circumstance publish my results on a non-locksmith forum; even then, I am very dubious about posting them anywhere.

Nearly all my tests showed that Pickbuster could be easily by-passed using various methods and in some cases, solvents and certain household cleaners.

I believe that the MLA also carried out bumping tests using this product at a regional meeting and again it failed. It failed preventing several cylinders being bumped.

Are Almore / UAP seeking approval from non-professional locksmiths? Ie: picking hobbyists and several open forums: UKBumps, Ezpicking etc for non-locksmiths, and I noticed that the experts at Toool were contacted and they didn’t take up the challenge. (Regular visitors to this forum know that the members here consist of quite a mixture, not a high proportion of memberships are professional locksmiths, but mostly hobby pickers and enthusiasts, along with students and some others?).

It is a great pity that Almore / UAP did not approach some of the other experienced locksmiths of the MLA and some of the independent locksmiths in this country, to carry out extensive unbiased and independent tests prior to selling, and certainly not have involved persons who have a vested interest to do the testing. This would have given a wider unbiased ‘Test Result’ base and would have been far more compelling.

Any form of lubrication will cause a cylinder to fail eventually; it’s impossible to say how long that it could take, it could be weeks, months or years. But my long experience has shown that the majority of cylinder failures in my area, the Southwest of England, have been due to introduction of lubricants at some point previously, along with the ingress of airborne particulate matter and in some cases the effects of salt air.

I suppose it doesn’t matter now as the powers that be, as they have enough information to make accurate and informed judgement on the product. It’s just a shame that this thread and some of its posts have now caused an even bigger problem.

I feel that a lot of this discussion should not be in the public eye, the security of homes is at risk, and scaremongering is rife, so I for one am not at all happy with some of the content of this thread.

Before I bring this post to a closure, I will ask all of you who are experimenting in this area including the locksmiths on this website, to experiment more with your work, try out different ideas, be scientific, and take a very close look at your results and make notes of your findings, however, please do not publish them on an open forum.
If you want to discuss such security features then please do so in a secure environment. The moderators on here are aware of these problems, however if you are unsure, contact them first.

I am now asking Lockpicking 101 to remove or move this topic / thread out of the public eye into the secure area, as this has already gone too far.

End of subject.

Regards
Chris B

Admin, if this thread is removed, please leave a shadow of this post locked in place on the open forum to serve, as a reminder that some things are best not discussed on an open forum.