Medeco Biaxial vs Schlage Primus vs Scorpion CX-5

by **Wade** » 2 Jan 2006 22:19

what good does the rotating bottom pins do? Does it have anything to do with the sidebar? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but im really confused with this rotating pin stuff. :lol:

Also, I have a Medeco Metrolock 52-5 padlock that I was told is biaxial, does all biaxial locks have those rotating pins?

-Thanks

by **digital_blue** » 2 Jan 2006 22:59

The rotating pins have grooves, or gates, on the sides of the pins. These gates accommodate the fingers on the sidebar. Until they're all aligned by correctly rotating the bottom pins, the sidebar cannot retract into the lock and the lock won't open.

FWIW, all of these locks are an exceptionally difficult pick, and I would tend to agree with Zeke's assessment that picking them in the field is probably not an option.

db

by **Gordon Airporte** » 3 Jan 2006 2:14

Okay there's something I'm not clear on either. Is the deal with the counter milling/boring that it catches the pin before it completely sets, but unlike a normal spool or mushroom setup it just locks in there so there's no way to get the plug to counter-rotate by pushing up on the pin more? I've been trying to work something like that out myself.

by **digital_blue** » 3 Jan 2006 2:40

That I'll defer to Zeke whom I know actually has a living example of this technology in practice.

db

by **zeke79** » 3 Jan 2006 7:55

Gordon Airporte wrote:Okay there's something I'm not clear on either. Is the deal with the counter milling/boring that it catches the pin before it completely sets, but unlike a normal spool or mushroom setup it just locks in there so there's no way to get the plug to counter-rotate by pushing up on the pin more? I've been trying to work something like that out myself.

You are correct. I do not experience any counter rotation while picking and caught in the counter boring in any of my locks that use this feature. My ASSA SCD, Twin, Twin Pro, and V10 locks use this feature along with the scorpion CX5.

by **Shrub** » 3 Jan 2006 10:09

Its because there is no rocking there, the larger diameter of the spool is basically in air and not being pushed against a chamber side, you are instead pushing against the middle (smaller diameter) of the spool.

The rocking happens on a normal spool and chamber because the edge of the larger diameter on the spool is on the chamber wall and so there is movement allowed between the edge of the larger diameter and the edge of the smaller diameter.

by **zeke79** » 3 Jan 2006 10:26

I agree with you Shrub. Since the spool is not trapped at shear line and the full diameter of the pin is, there is no possibility for the counter rotation experienced on normal locks with spool pins. I think I posted this info in this thread or maybe another, I am not sure anymore. I think I am loosing my mind between locks, work, life, kids being sick, holidays, machining work load, etc. I am a candle burning at both ends right now and the wick is getting short.

by **Shrub** » 3 Jan 2006 10:28

Well ive got no wax anymore and its turning into just one flame so i know how your feeling :wink:

by **workstation** » 3 Jan 2006 16:04

So if they're all exceptionally hard to pick, and reasonably equal at resisting destructive entry, the only remaining question is: which is cheapest?

Does anyone here know?

by **zeke79** » 3 Jan 2006 16:21

Scorpion CX5 hands down is cheapest.

by **searsman05** » 3 Jan 2006 22:54

So i think now i am understanding all this counter milling/boring stuff correctly. But could someone counter mill say a medeco cylinder or schlage primus and make it even more difficult to pick?

And while on the subject of these locks what in your opinion has the nastiest key way to pick?

I think by my experience trying to pick a medeco lock was pretty frickin hard to accomplish. i Have not tried to pick my primus yet( still have to re-pin the lock) and i have not picked up a scorpion lock yet, been trying to see where i can find one. I had someone email me a quote for 50 bucks plus 5 dollar shipping, but i am kind of a cheap a$$ cuz i just wanna learn pick it.

And by the way all this info is great. Thanks to everyone that has posted and made my learning experience great.

-James

by **zeke79** » 3 Jan 2006 23:36

Yes, medeco or anyone else could add this to their manufacturing process for an added cost..... This in my opinion would add a substantial cost to the manufacturing process of the locks. Primus is in my experience harder to straight out pick than a medeco as the sidebar mechanism offers very very little feedback. I have yet to attempt a Scorpion lock myself, but with my experience of ASSA locks and their couter boring, it will be just as hard as a Primus lock or harder to pick.

by **n2oah** » 4 Jan 2006 16:51

searsman05 wrote:And while on the subject of these locks what in your opinion has the nastiest key way to pick?

Nasty Keyway?

That is on one of Zeke's locks. To my knowledge, he has not picked it yet.

Another feature medeco is lacking is an ugly keyway. If they had a horrible keyway, it would make their locks nearly impossible to pick, especially with the addition of counter borings .

I also happen to own another lock that is very hard to pick, made by Corbin Emhart. This lock, like Medeco, uses rotating pins, but instead of using them to control a sidebar, the pins lock together.

by **n2oah** » 4 Jan 2006 16:56

I forgot to add that I gave Zeke an Emhart cylinder, and he has yet to pick it, and Skold should be getting one from me shortly

I recently won some more Emhart cylinders on eBay, so I may make a cutaway of one :wink:

by **workstation** » 4 Jan 2006 17:06

n2oah,

Isn't it odd that Assa Abloy have discontinued Emhart locks? They seem pretty formidable. Do you think they are more expensive to make than the Medeco design? Is that it? Or were they just generally unprofitable?

Medeco Biaxial vs Schlage Primus vs Scorpion CX-5

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