walk away or drill

[bobc]

thanks for your replys i understand this is more of a pickers forum .and thats a good point it is quicker to pick than drill a pin tumbler most of the time but the last one i drilled was an old black leg where the bolt threw to the right it was a guy who had come from a night club he had a cab waiting and could not pay him untill i let him in ,i removed the door handle id ed the lock and drilled the stump out ,sorry if this upsets any one ,and idont profess to be the best picker in town but i could not have picked this lock faster than drilling it.ime shareing my exsperiences because i want to be good at this . idont know any locksmiths and this is the only forum i know where i can talk to other lockies. some times when people are hanging round the doorway i do find it off putting and it takes me longer to pick the lock does this happen to all lockies .and does it go away with exsperience

Well I think we have got to admire this guy for having the guts and honesty to come on here and be so open about himself and his experience.
I myself have only been trading since jan this year and yes I have drilled a euro cylinder(which I did replace free of charge) and a lever lock which was faulty!
Yes I have been lucky that I have managed to gain entry with all my other lockouts without drilling I say lucky because I by no means consider myself skillful in the art of picking but I do practice and I am doing as much as I possibly can to get better at this .
The only way for a new guy to learn this trade is on the doorstep as thats the only real life experience you can get, yes there are courses out there if you have hundreds,thousands of pounds to chuck at them but then as been said before they only give an insight and basic knowledge of the true skills needed and so you have to learn on the job.
I consider myself very honest and certainly don't rip people off. 30% of my work I have done free of charge ok it was only putting right a few minor errors eg poorly fitted lock, lock needed oiling etc. and of my paid work I have had return calls or recommendations to others .
Just to point out that we new guys are not all bad, I for one am willing to learn and want to be a NDE locksmith but that doesn't come overnight and takes time and committment I know and appreciate that and like the author of this said finding another locksmith who wants to talk to you without a price is near impossible.
To get any real knowledge from this site you need to be able access the advance section which can't be done unless you have made loads of posts which are considered worthy and how does one do that ? Most of the general topics have been covered many times !!!
Anyhow I've got it off my chest now so to speak and had my grumble so to all you experienced guys out there I would appreciate any help and knowledge galdy and remember YOU were once in our shoes.

bobc

[lost profit]

loved reading that thread pinky the advice is all good. i have picked many moritce locks on the job but i can only be honest ive drilled a few under pressure , if your advice is right with the amount of practice i put in i should eventualy eradicate drilling completely .i joined this forum to see what other lockies thought of my techiques and the extent of my knowledge . i know ill get a kicking from some moderators but if ime not honest other people in my position wont stick their neck out and give me the benefit of the mistakes theyve made and how they,ve over come them . so my next question is . when i rake a contract euro cylinder in about two seconds the amazement on the customers faces is is unreal if ime asked to upgrade these cylinders i always fit garrison is this overkill or am i doing the right thing?

[UNFORGIVEN]

i think its safe for many people to say they have turned to the drill one in a while i know i have im not going to deniy it its not good pratice i know
but another tool i love to use and i dont know if anyothers approve but with all respect i dont care lol coz its a real money earner for me
and that is my humble LETTER BOX TOOL i would say to me its worth its weight in gold but its not that heavy lol but very handy to have along side all me picks

[bobc]

i think its safe for many people to say they have turned to the drill one in a while i know i have im not going to deniy it its not good pratice i know
but another tool i love to use and i dont know if anyothers approve but with all respect i dont care lol coz its a real money earner for me
and that is my humble LETTER BOX TOOL i would say to me its worth its weight in gold but its not that heavy lol but very handy to have along side all me picks

Yes a great little tool that and certainly a godsend in some situations.
I would have thought a must for every locksmith to carry around especially as you rightly said its light and compact so takes up so little space !

bobc

[toomush2drink]

Yes I have been lucky that I have managed to gain entry with all my other lockouts without drilling I say lucky because I by no means consider myself skillful in the art of picking but I do practice and I am doing as much as I possibly can to get better at this .
The only way for a new guy to learn this trade is on the doorstep as thats the only real life experience you can get, yes there are courses out there if you have hundreds,thousands of pounds to chuck at them but then as been said before they only give an insight and basic knowledge of the true skills needed and so you have to learn on the job.
I consider myself very honest and certainly don't rip people off. 30% of my work I have done free of charge ok it was only putting right a few minor errors eg poorly fitted lock, lock needed oiling etc. and of my paid work I have had return calls or recommendations to others .
Just to point out that we new guys are not all bad, I for one am willing to learn and want to be a NDE locksmith but that doesn't come overnight and takes time and committment I know and appreciate that and like the author of this said finding another locksmith who wants to talk to you without a price is near impossible.
To get any real knowledge from this site you need to be able access the advance section which can't be done unless you have made loads of posts which are considered worthy and how does one do that ? Most of the general topics have been covered many times !!!
Anyhow I've got it off my chest now so to speak and had my grumble so to all you experienced guys out there I would appreciate any help and knowledge galdy and remember YOU were once in our shoes.

bobc

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points, firstly why do you expect other lockies to help you on a free open forum like this one, if you join an organisation like the MLA ( it may mean spending money) you will get stacks of help from other lockies. I paid a lot for my knowledge through training so im not exactly going to start giving it away to others for free, would you ?

There is so much information in the open sections of this forum its crazy, what do you think real knowledge is ?The advanced section is just that,advanced stuff, high security locks etc, do you encounter many medecos,3ks etc ? Knowledge is only good if you know how to apply it, its only then its starts to form new skills.Many could tell you how to bump a multilock, but how many can actually do it ?

I do see your point about experience but a lot can also be learnt from putting the time in on the bench and studying locks, lever heights etc, you wont learn this on the door.Take time out to "project" a certain lock,get to know it inside out,its weaknesses and strengths etc then move on to the next one.Soon you will gain a lot of experience through this method and learn that locks a legge yellow require a strong pick and lots of tension to pick.

When most trainees, be it a carpenter, plumber or electrician go out and get experience they normally have someone experienced with them on the job, do you think different rules should apply to locksmiths ? Sure you have to learn but does it have to be on a customers door ?Woodwork skills can be learnt at home as can lock picking.If you want pressure get people to watch you,set up your own difficult senarios like a keyhole tight to the door frame or tight keep.Get a cheap door and practice fitting locks in it.Unfortunately there is no way of going at this trade without spending the money.Without spending the money you will struggle, like when a new lock comes out and you need to buy a few to "project" it, then maybe in invest in the tool that opens it etc.Quite a few new locks have come out recently so its on going.Even a driller will need to buy the new locks so they know the drill points or take a chance its on a lock id cd on ebay either way it will cost you.Being a member of an organisation helps in these areas as other members share this knowledge.

I do agree a lot of topics have been covered already so gaining access may be harder these days but if your determined it isnt really a problem is it ? after all its free information.

[Bud Wiser]

Yes I have been lucky that I have managed to gain entry with all my other lockouts without drilling I say lucky because I by no means consider myself skillful in the art of picking but I do practice and I am doing as much as I possibly can to get better at this .
The only way for a new guy to learn this trade is on the doorstep as thats the only real life experience you can get, yes there are courses out there if you have hundreds,thousands of pounds to chuck at them but then as been said before they only give an insight and basic knowledge of the true skills needed and so you have to learn on the job.
I consider myself very honest and certainly don't rip people off. 30% of my work I have done free of charge ok it was only putting right a few minor errors eg poorly fitted lock, lock needed oiling etc. and of my paid work I have had return calls or recommendations to others .
Just to point out that we new guys are not all bad, I for one am willing to learn and want to be a NDE locksmith but that doesn't come overnight and takes time and committment I know and appreciate that and like the author of this said finding another locksmith who wants to talk to you without a price is near impossible.
To get any real knowledge from this site you need to be able access the advance section which can't be done unless you have made loads of posts which are considered worthy and how does one do that ? Most of the general topics have been covered many times !!!
Anyhow I've got it off my chest now so to speak and had my grumble so to all you experienced guys out there I would appreciate any help and knowledge galdy and remember YOU were once in our shoes.

bobc

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points, firstly why do you expect other lockies to help you on a free open forum like this one, if you join an organization like the MLA ( it may mean spending money) you will get stacks of help from other lockies. I paid a lot for my knowledge through training so im not exactly going to start giving it away to others for free, would you ?

There is so much information in the open sections of this forum its crazy, what do you think real knowledge is ?The advanced section is just that,advanced stuff, high security locks etc, do you encounter many medecos,3ks etc ? Knowledge is only good if you know how to apply it, its only then its starts to form new skills.Many could tell you how to bump a multilock, but how many can actually do it ?

I do see your point about experience but a lot can also be learnt from putting the time in on the bench and studying locks, lever heights etc, you wont learn this on the door.Take time out to "project" a certain lock,get to know it inside out,its weaknesses and strengths etc then move on to the next one.Soon you will gain a lot of experience through this method and learn that locks a legge yellow require a strong pick and lots of tension to pick.

When most trainees, be it a carpenter, plumber or electrician go out and get experience they normally have someone experienced with them on the job, do you think different rules should apply to locksmiths ? Sure you have to learn but does it have to be on a customers door ?Woodwork skills can be learnt at home as can lock picking.If you want pressure get people to watch you,set up your own difficult senarios like a keyhole tight to the door frame or tight keep.Get a cheap door and practice fitting locks in it.Unfortunately there is no way of going at this trade without spending the money.Without spending the money you will struggle, like when a new lock comes out and you need to buy a few to "project" it, then maybe in invest in the tool that opens it etc.Quite a few new locks have come out recently so its on going.Even a driller will need to buy the new locks so they know the drill points or take a chance its on a lock id cd on ebay either way it will cost you.Being a member of an organisation helps in these areas as other members share this knowledge.

I do agree a lot of topics have been covered already so gaining access may be harder these days but if your determined it isnt really a problem is it ? after all its free information.

And I disagree on a few points you made as well, no hard feelings ok?

First you say you had to pay for your knowledge and would not give it up so freely and ask, "who would?". To answer your question, I would, and I'm sure I'm no saint or extra nice guy, just some one who enjoys sharing and helping others.

Next you admit that nothing can replace on the job experience, which kind of takes a little merit away from your logic of giving away knowledge you paid for freely.

I'm of the opinion that knowledge no matter how it was obtained, freely, paid for, on the job, etc., is best utilized by freely sharing with others.

You give examples of carpenters, electricians, etc, but over look the fact that the vast majority of these skilled laborers freely give advice to any one who askes with out questioning their credentials, or experience, or what organization they belong to. I understand there is a need to be more careful in the locksmith biz but to further with hold information to fellow lockies seems absurd to me, almost selfish, as if to say, hey I had to work hard to learn, so I'm not going to give up any of my knowledge for free.

But ultimately we are our own person and can either freely give or not give. I just wanted to point out not every one is of the same mind as you. Take no offense, I mean no disrespect, just disagree with some of your points.

As for the advance forum subject, I don't think moderators expect or demand new ground breaking contributions that have not been covered before, but more so on how helpful and active you are. How you conduct yourself, etc.

[toomush2drink]

Bud weiser you missed my point that the information is available if you belong to an organisation of like mind locksmiths and is shared, its just not done on public forums like this.All the people i share the juicy stuff with have all had a police check done so i know im not dealing with criminals, that is not the case on a public forum.

You give examples of carpenters, electricians, etc, but over look the fact that the vast majority of these skilled laborers freely give advice to any one who askes with out questioning their credentials, or experience, or what organization they belong to. I understand there is a need to be more careful in the locksmith biz but to further with hold information to fellow lockies seems absurd to me, almost selfish, as if to say, hey I had to work hard to learn, so I'm not going to give up any of my knowledge for free.

Your so right, unfortunately over here at the moment the locksmith market is saturated so why would i spoon feed information that took me a long time to aquire to others.If you were doing an apprenticeship you wouldnt learn everything straight away from the teacher, they would alllow your skills to develop before giving away their knowledge.If you want to see me as selfish then thats fine, i dont mind, but remember how long ive contributed to this site, ive been a member since long before my profile says, i joined in feb 2004.Ive written start up guides etc which many have found useful.
My point was that what other trade would you expect the trainee to come around to your house on their own so they can carry out a job and gain some experience ? How would you feel knowing that the person doing the job doesnt have the skills to do it but needs the experience but they dont have anyone with them to oversee the job if it goes wrong ? You can minimise the risks by doing the work on the bench at home. Most dont want to put the work in though they just want to earn 1K a week, just think how many come on this site and ask the same old questions that are already answered a dozen times already ?

I welcome your point of view but feel i have to to disagree with it somewhat

[Bud Wiser]

Bud weiser you missed my point that the information is available if you belong to an organisation of like mind locksmiths and is shared, its just not done on public forums like this.All the people i share the juicy stuff with have all had a police check done so i know im not dealing with criminals, that is not the case on a public forum.

You give examples of carpenters, electricians, etc, but over look the fact that the vast majority of these skilled laborers freely give advice to any one who askes with out questioning their credentials, or experience, or what organization they belong to. I understand there is a need to be more careful in the locksmith biz but to further with hold information to fellow lockies seems absurd to me, almost selfish, as if to say, hey I had to work hard to learn, so I'm not going to give up any of my knowledge for free.

Your so right, unfortunately over here at the moment the locksmith market is saturated so why would i spoon feed information that took me a long time to aquire to others.If you were doing an apprenticeship you wouldnt learn everything straight away from the teacher, they would alllow your skills to develop before giving away their knowledge.If you want to see me as selfish then thats fine, i dont mind, but remember how long ive contributed to this site, ive been a member since long before my profile says, i joined in feb 2004.Ive written start up guides etc which many have found useful.
My point was that what other trade would you expect the trainee to come around to your house on their own so they can carry out a job and gain some experience ? How would you feel knowing that the person doing the job doesnt have the skills to do it but needs the experience but they dont have anyone with them to oversee the job if it goes wrong ? You can minimise the risks by doing the work on the bench at home. Most dont want to put the work in though they just want to earn 1K a week, just think how many come on this site and ask the same old questions that are already answered a dozen times already ?

I welcome your point of view but feel i have to to disagree with it somewhat

Fair enough, good counter points

[bobc]

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points, firstly why do you expect other lockies to help you on a free open forum like this one, if you join an organisation like the MLA ( it may mean spending money) you will get stacks of help from other lockies. I paid a lot for my knowledge through training so im not exactly going to start giving it away to others for free, would you ?

There is so much information in the open sections of this forum its crazy, what do you think real knowledge is ?The advanced section is just that,advanced stuff, high security locks etc, do you encounter many medecos,3ks etc ? Knowledge is only good if you know how to apply it, its only then its starts to form new skills.Many could tell you how to bump a multilock, but how many can actually do it ?

I do see your point about experience but a lot can also be learnt from putting the time in on the bench and studying locks, lever heights etc, you wont learn this on the door.Take time out to "project" a certain lock,get to know it inside out,its weaknesses and strengths etc then move on to the next one.Soon you will gain a lot of experience through this method and learn that locks a legge yellow require a strong pick and lots of tension to pick.

When most trainees, be it a carpenter, plumber or electrician go out and get experience they normally have someone experienced with them on the job, do you think different rules should apply to locksmiths ? Sure you have to learn but does it have to be on a customers door ?Woodwork skills can be learnt at home as can lock picking.If you want pressure get people to watch you,set up your own difficult senarios like a keyhole tight to the door frame or tight keep.Get a cheap door and practice fitting locks in it.Unfortunately there is no way of going at this trade without spending the money.Without spending the money you will struggle, like when a new lock comes out and you need to buy a few to "project" it, then maybe in invest in the tool that opens it etc.Quite a few new locks have come out recently so its on going.Even a driller will need to buy the new locks so they know the drill points or take a chance its on a lock id cd on ebay either way it will cost you.Being a member of an organisation helps in these areas as other members share this knowledge.

I do agree a lot of topics have been covered already so gaining access may be harder these days but if your determined it isnt really a problem is it ? after all its free information.

I take your points on board ! I appreciate that you paid a lot of money to advance yourself in this trade I was merely pointing out that some people want to knock the new guy unless its for payment and then not always the best advice ! I am old & wise enough to know that nothing for free in this world (certainly not these days anyhow) I am paying for my ongoing training in this trade as well I don't expect it for free but I don't feel that the odd bit of advice is going to hurt anyone .
I am certainly not a criminal and have likely had more police checks done on me than most people on this site ( I should add that was to do with past employments) and not because of anything criminal!
I also don't expect to earn large amounts of money I live in the real world
On the point of training I would welcome apprenticeship training in this industry but then again locksmithing isn't the only trade you can set up without any qualications eg Plumbing you can do provided you are not touching gas and most plumbers if fitting a shower call a sparky in to do any electric work
Anyhow everyone is entittled to his/her opinion and I respect that .
Personal I am all for helping people whatever but then I am what I am and nothing will ever change that view.
Thanks again for input there is some good advice in there so I am not knocking you in any way so don't take any offence

bobc

[quicklocks]

i agree with toomush and pinky here.
ive been quiet for a while, watching whats going on and what you all must remember THIS IS A HOBBY pickers site. it just so happens a few locksmiths around the world vist here and share a few pearls of wisdom like toomush and pinky and many other locksmiths we have all wrote guides i have provided videos ive been on this site since sept 2003. i consider myself a long term member.
the others on the site who arnt locksmiths wind me up with the attitude of tell me it all i want to know now. i have worked hard for my knowledge and i have asked loads of questions i practice loads i put the time in experimenting i have self tought most of my skills i have done BS courses with pinky i have had help with imprssioning from chris B.
so at the end of the day a hobbyist doesnt need to open cars or safes or most of the advanced stuff.
half the fun for a hobby picker is to work it out yourself and only to ask when you realy are well stuck
sorry for my rant but i feel this needs to be said

[bonez]

seems to me this is turning into a which organisation you belong to!!!!

the "mla" where i live have told me era bs locks can't be picked!
garrisons can't be bumped!

they drill everything they come up against regardless!
as for the original post "walk away or drill"!!!!!!

master locksmith association say drill everything!!!!!!
because you'r on a what you don't know can't hurt you
senario!

i'm not saying all mla are like this,but from what i've seen
they are a closed shop that does'nt seem to like any one
with some lock knowledge?

it 's as though the whole industry is on self destruct with no one
faction willing to unite!

i'm all for nde but it's all cloak and dagger at the moment!

no offence to anyone

but the bitchin should stop.

sincerly

bones.

[lost profit]

thanks for the advice

[pinky]

I agree, bitching should stop.
But some good points were raised in this thread, and some good advice given, and i know what you mean by mla and lock drilling, but not all mla, alan morgan for one of many are some of the countries finest.

its comments like learning on the door, that offend much of the locksmith community, as why should the customer pay for a guys training at their cost, the guys offering a free lock when they drill one, respect to you, this sort of learning on the door is acceptable, as the customer doesnt suffer and you get your experience, everyone a winner.
But to the guys who think its ok to drill a lock charge locksmith rates and then charge overpriced rates for locks on top, this is what has to stop, after all consider this scenario;

You go to the garage needing new brake pads, you are told £100 and your happy and leave your car with them.
You return 2 hours later to be told the bill is now £200 because the apprentice did the job, sadly he damaged the disks, so these had to be replaced, but he has to learn somewhere, and you now get charged for his mistake.
But wait, you had paid for a mechanic to do the work, not the apprentice, the firm should never have left him alone on your car, but he has to learn on the job.

do you happily pay the extra for his mistake and agree he had to learn ?
or do you complain and refuse to pay, fuming at this?

if you refuse to pay and dont believe you should pay, then whats the difference with learning on the job as a locksmith making a customer pay for your lack of knowledge ? none at all!

now had you gone to pick the car up, been charged the £100 quoted, but been told the same story, the apprentice had damaged the disks too, but we have replaced them free for you at no extra charge. i doubt you would mind at all, after all you now feel you have benefited and will use this honest garage again. would you use the one again who charged you extra ?

there is no difference at all between this scenario and the locksmith, and i hope it highlights the difference between learning on the door at the customers cost or ethicaly at your own cost, ask your self if you would pay the extra in the above scenario, if you wouldnt then why is it ok for the training locksmith to charge the same.

i have to agree with toomush, MLA forum and ALOI forum are locksmith forums, ALOI allow non members onto their general forums free, here info is shared safely out of the public glare and away from potential wrong doers, as all is in closed forums.
this is the premier hobby site with some dedicated top pickers, it enjoys input from some good locksmiths, but these guys only post what they feel comfortable posting in an open public enviroment, proving there is a place for for all levels in various forums, we can all mix and we can all help each other to the point we are all comfortable with.

despite bitching this has been a good thread with some good advice given amongst the bitchin, and if only one thing is learnt from this thread, then it was worthwhile to the author, and i believe he has handled himself well, and i admire his gonads for asking.

[toomush2drink]

Lost profits i wasnt making any comments towards yourself but merely adding to the debate.You seem to be on the right track and i respect your honesty keep practicing and you will see the advantages of picking over drilling.Sure the tools cost a lot but once you have them you will see the other advantages of owning them like being able to rekey locks a lot easier.

Its not about closed shop if your in an organisation only if your outside it.

[bonez]

2 mush


you misunderstand! everybody seems to be fighting about who should be told what?

you paid your money for info!!!!!!!!!


so did i mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm not mla so why can;t we talk!!!!!!!!!!!!1