Double-cylinder locks?

[femurat]

Here in Italy you can have whatever you want installed on your door. The most common door is armoured. Have I told you about the concrete walls? You just can't kick down the door.
The main lock is a lever lock, accessible from both sides of the door and opened with what you'd probably call a safe key (double bitted) wich controls at least 2 (but usually 6) bars. Usually we have an additional euro cylinder with a thumb-turn on the inside to lock the door with just one bolt.

Despite the lack of an official law, at my parent's home there's one simple rule: if somebody is in the house use the thumb-turn. If you're the last one leaving, use the main lock.
This since we were more worried by the possibility of being trapped in the house rather than being robbed.
I have to admit that we were robbed many times (trough the windows), but I was never locked in
Then we decided to put metal gates on the windows and nobody visited us again. But that's a different story...

At my home I decided to follow my parents rule, but this is just my personal choice. I think a good thumb-turn cylinder (mottura champions, cisa rs3, iseo r7...) is enough to protect me while sleeping, but again, this is just my personal opinion. There are too many different elements to choose the right and universal solution for everybody.

Cheers

[Josh K]

If you still think it is a matter of choice even if local codes don't allow for it, you had better install automatic fire sprinklers in your home because if anyone was ever injured in a fire at your home and a double cylinder lock was found to be on the primary egress door, you would be dealing with a criminal charge of at least reckless endangerment if nobody was seriously hurt up to negligent homicide if someone died...

~~ Evan

wow... why don't you tell me how you REALLY feel..

+1.

[globallockytoo]

Double cylinder locks won't protect your house as well as a properly designed and monitored alarm system will... And the alarm system can do other wonderful things like being tied into your smoke and CO detectors to save your life in the middle of the night and water sensors in the basement in case a pipe bursts while you are not at home...


~~ Evan

This is a fallacy. Alarm systems never have been or ever will be security protection devices. They cannot be.

What does an alarm do? It makes a noise or "informs" that a condition is occuring. THAT'S ALL

They can NOT physically protect your house because there is no physical protective product or device.

You have contradicted your own statement.

[Josh K]

Double cylinder locks won't protect your house as well as a properly designed and monitored alarm system will... And the alarm system can do other wonderful things like being tied into your smoke and CO detectors to save your life in the middle of the night and water sensors in the basement in case a pipe bursts while you are not at home...


~~ Evan

This is a fallacy. Alarm systems never have been or ever will be security protection devices. They cannot be.

What does an alarm do? It makes a noise or [b]"informs" that a condition is occuring. THAT'S ALL

They can NOT physically protect your house because there is no physical protective product or device.[/b]

You have contradicted your own statement.

+1 to all of those statements.

[ChemicalRobot]

Well, unless you have booby traps rigged to your alarm system. Ok just kidding, don't do that.

[unlisted]

Well, unless you have booby traps rigged to your alarm system.

Well, rigged sorta.. For example: Mine are all "activated to the ready" by the alarm system- with additional triggers when you cross one of them..

[Evan]

Double cylinder locks won't protect your house as well as a properly designed and monitored alarm system will... And the alarm system can do other wonderful things like being tied into your smoke and CO detectors to save your life in the middle of the night and water sensors in the basement in case a pipe bursts while you are not at home...


~~ Evan

This is a fallacy. Alarm systems never have been or ever will be security protection devices. They cannot be.

What does an alarm do? It makes a noise or "informs" that a condition is occuring. THAT'S ALL

They can NOT physically protect your house because there is no physical protective product or device.

You have contradicted your own statement.

You aren't very familiar with alarm systems it seems... A double cylinder lock won't do anything but keep a door locked on both sides while hindering emergency egress which might have to occur in less than fully ideal conditions... Which is dangerous more of the time than it is beneficial... Those locks will keep you and others locked in if you DO NOT have the key right there to open the lock... If you come home and walk in on a burglary and you have locked the door behind you, you have now made it harder to escape the situation and get to safety...

Alarm system a fallacy ? Nope... The alarm system does indeed make noise but that is only one of its functions, the other more important function is to also summon assistance to the location by means of reporting the alarm condition to a central monitoring station which receives a signal from your system at the same time the audible devices in your home activate and make that noise which "informs" you that something abnormal is occurring... It does all of this without you having to be conscious or alert and able to dial a phone to do it yourself to describe what is happening yourself...

Alarm systems these days monitor for more than intrusion, they integrate smoke detectors to monitor for fire, they integrate CO detectors to monitor for a dangerous build up of Carbon Monoxide gas inside your home and they often include water sensors to put next to your water heater tank and washing machine to alert you to leaks which could cause expensive damage to your home...

The fallacy is thinking that you will ALWAYS be able to react to a break-in while you are home and be able to call the police in time before you are attacked or be able to escape in a life threatening emergency that occurs while you are sleeping by yourself without assistance from rescue personnel...

You do not need a physical locking device which only has the potential to do you more harm than the so called 'protection' it offers... A decent medium quality door lock installed on a typical residential door and opening preparation when COMBINED with an alarm system which is properly designed and monitored will do more to actually protect you in a wider variety of conditions which are more likely to occur in your home... If you reinforce the door and install a lock which can trap you inside that is not home protection and you could come home to find that door smashed in and not know when anything happened other than "well it was in one piece when I left for work this morning officer"...

How that contradicts any statement made about actual home protection that doesn't carry more risks than the so called 'protection' offered by a dangerous double-cylinder lock confuses me... Please explain how you think that is contradictory using more of an explanation than what you have offered so far... Because an alarm system can summon outside help to your home automatically for you, a double cylinder deadbolt lock can not...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Well, unless you have booby traps rigged to your alarm system.

Well, rigged sorta.. For example: Mine are all "activated to the ready" by the alarm system- with additional triggers when you cross one of them..

I don't know for certain what laws are on this issue outside of the United States but in the United States it is illegal to protect physical property by means of automatically triggered "mantrap" devices which use deadly force... "Deadly force" is something which has the potential to kill even if it is not 'aimed to kill' i.e. a gun positioned to shoot someone's foot is still considered deadly force even though the mechanism isn't positioned to effect immediate death of the victim... So any sort of weaponry used in that type of "mantrap" would be considered deadly force... The law places more value on protecting human life than it does on ownership rights of property...

You are only legally authorized to use deadly force to protect life and property when you are there holding the gun in your own hand and making a real time decision to use it... You could get into more trouble than the intruder who broke into your home even if you are present while such an automatic device injures an intruder upon being triggered... End result: you end up in the same jail awaiting trial with the burglar...

Even if your posting was intended as nothing more than a joke it is in poor taste as it makes light of the use of an illegal "mantrap" device which is designed and intended to injure an intruder...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

Well, we know who to call if LockPicking101.com forums ever needs to have legal counsel on retainer.

Evan, you seem to really know your stuff man, but we don't need a father figure preaching to us in every post.

You're either a hobby lock picker, a wise locksmith, or a lawyer, but please don't try to be all 3 all of the time.


Happy picking everyone, that is what we're here for isn't it?
Squelchtone

[unlisted]

Well, thanks for clearing up what I already knew Evan.

If you really want to know, I used to store high explosives at my property, and therefore had a legal responsibility in safeguarding them from theft, etc. I did not have anything "deathly lethal" as a "booby trap".

Everything was mandated, approved and mostly paid for by the government, including the remote CCTV monitoring and alarm/intrusion system. The feeds were wired direct to the local police station, and they could watch it live, and control certain functions of the intrusion system. (locking/unlocking doors, dropping a fire door, etc)


I don't reside there anymore, but I did learn quite a few things when they installed that.

[crabbyab]

I tried picking a Double Cylinder lock the other day for someone who locked herself in a room and the key for the lock was behind another locked door. So the Double cylinder was locked on the inside and I was trying to unlock it from the outside. I finally got the tumbler to turn to the right, and the door wouldn't open, so I thought I picked it the wrong way. Then I picked it in the other direction, and while the tumbler moved , the door wouldn't.

Does it make sense that I couldn't open it either way??

Finally I shoved my screw driver under the door and had my friend take out the lockset and then I moved the deadbolt myself.

Does this makes sense? Shouldn't I have been able to unlock it?

[Evan]

I tried picking a Double Cylinder lock the other day for someone who locked herself in a room and the key for the lock was behind another locked door. So the Double cylinder was locked on the inside and I was trying to unlock it from the outside. I finally got the tumbler to turn to the right, and the door wouldn't open, so I thought I picked it the wrong way. Then I picked it in the other direction, and while the tumbler moved , the door wouldn't.

Does it make sense that I couldn't open it either way??

Finally I shoved my screw driver under the door and had my friend take out the lockset and then I moved the deadbolt myself.

Does this makes sense? Shouldn't I have been able to unlock it?

When you disassembled the lock was it still in an operable condition ?

Was the door locked from the inside with the key that became locked in the other room ?

Was it even possible to unlock that door from the outside with a key, or was that lock intended to be used only from the inside of the door to secure the room while some sort of sensitive business operation (like counting money or securing expensive products/money in their protective storage containers) was taking place...

Just not enough information to give a concrete answer...

Your example does however sound like a prime example of why double cylinder locks should not be used on the only door leading OUT of a room, as entrapment can result...

~~ Evan

[crabbyab]

The lock was still operable, the key was used to lock it from the inside and then locked in the closet. It has been opened ok from the outside before. It was just an apartment, no sensitive business-just a paranoid tenent!

I am not sure why it didn't open when I picked it, and now that it is off the door, it probably doesn't really matter. I just wanted an answer in case I came across the issue again.

I agree that double-cylinder locks are not a good idea. I would never have one on my door. Thanks for the thoughts!