Antique Iron Strong Box from 1800s

[toomush2drink]

Right you should be able to open this with the coat hanger but you may need to L shaped wires. One wire is inserted to the back of the key way and tensioned as you have done and it shouldnt move. Now take your other wire and lift it up slightly in front of the other wire to lift the levers. You may need to do this a few times and work your way back and forth till it opens. If this doesnt make sense look at this picture from another thread (courtesy of wallaby ) http://tinypic.com/173e5s As you can see the talon is the part towards the rear of the lock with the bolt attatched, your first wire applies tension to this. The lever in front is what you are trying to lift up so it can slide across with the tension from the talon. Bear in mind there is probably more than one lever but at least you can see what you are up against, the only main difference with your lock is that you have the pin in the middle which a pipe key would fit over, the picture i have shown uses a solid key instead.

good luck and get busy with the wd40

[davhamilton]

Thank you so much for the picture! I didn't really understand how this lock
works, but now I understand what I am looking at. When I look through the
lock and up, I can see the metal arch and I can also see the lever I need to
move. I couldn't really understand before how this type of lock worked, but
now I know which way the lever has to move to open the lock, so I just have
to get enough leverage to get it to move to the right (as I look into the lock).

I have one more question. I think there is only one lever since I can't seem
to feel any others. If there was a lever I couldn't see, but I apply enough
force to move the lever I can see, would this move both levers and open the
lock, or do I need to move both of them at the same time? Hopefully there is
just one, but just in case.

Thank you!
Dave

[toomush2drink]

If you put tension on the talon (the rear lever arch as you put it ) that is enough to move the other lever across. If it isnt seized up it should open quite easily but if the levers have rusted together it may be a different story. Maybe flush it out with the wd40 and leave overnight upside down so it really penetrates it. You wil be able to to tell if its ok by using just one wire to "lift" the lever up, if this works then do it again with the other wire tensioning the talon and it should open. Ok there isnt much room due to the pin in the keyway but it is feasible.

[davhamilton]

I tried for quite a while with a few different L shaped pieces of coat hanger
and was unable to get the talon or the lever to move at all. I was able to get
a small screwdriver in the lock and tried gently tapping with a hammer to see
if either would move, but neither one moved so I will assume it is seized up
or rusted together. I'll have to get some wd40 and give your idea a try to
see if that works. Maybe I should try to manipulate the talon or lever while it
is upside down after the wd40 has had time to work. Could that help at all?

Thanks for all of your advice. Hopefully I can get this strong box open in the
next few days before I go crazy with curiosity. Even if nothing ends up being
in it, the quest to open it and keep everything intact is pretty fun.

Dave

[capt.dunc]

i'm currious about this gap around the key way, it's difficult to tell from your photos if it's a ward in the centre of the lock or a gap between the box outer and a lock riveted to the inside. what can you feel with a probe in this gap? if it's a gap between the lock and case, and the lock is riveted through, then you could remove the rivet heads and knock the lock off to open the box. if it's a simple lever lock then follow toomushes advice, however be aware that the spring on the lever may have rusted through. the lock inards may look fine because they're discoloured brass, like the hinges, but the spring will be steel. if your having trouble reaching or appling tension then you may want to consider removing the key post. if it's an old style warded lock then it would be ideal for impressioning with a smoked key blank, although it may be hard to find a blank to fit because of the key post. if you've bought a set of 5 or so warded picks then the chances are that they're for warded padlocks, not a warded lock of this type. good luck, and let us all know how you get on.

[davhamilton]

Thanks for your response,

I've been curious about the gap too, it is hard to get probes in but when I
do I can't seem to hit anything above, to the left or to the right. I'm going
to cancel my order for the warded picks, since they were for padlocks as
you said. I figured they would work for this too, but I guess not.

So I guess I have two options at this point. I could remove the key post
to get more leverage, see if I can get things to move. If I can't, and wd40
doesn't help, then there is option 2.

There are four rivet heads on the outside of the box, so I assume the lock
is riveted through. How would I remove the rivet heads? If I remove
them, do I simply put a screwdriver in the gap between the lock and the
front wall of the strong box, and hit really hard with a hammer, or do I
hammer in at each of the rivet points?

Most likely the strong box was submerged at various points, so I think it is
fairly safe to assume the spring would have rusted. I wish there was
something I could use to see inside the lock, other than x-ray vision.

Thanks,
Dave

[raimundo]

where do you live, there is a tradition among some locksmiths here to collect and sometimes rekey old locks, start visiting locksmiths and antique dealers, some antique dealers have a big box of old keys. when you familiarize yourself with the types of locks that were common in the period, you would also have a good Idea of what old key might work, some of these old keys may have to be modified (filed down) a bit, but rather than be in a big rush to get the box open, I think you should be patient and start learning about old locks, There is a very good chance that whatever you find in the box will be completely worthless, so no hurry getting into it. You might also take pictures of it to a museum, probably someone on the staff would know who to contact to get the right information, there must be an antiqities lock person somewhere. Also, there are internet sites like oldlock.com that are antique collectors sites, from looking at the picture of the key hole, I can see a ward very close to the front of the lock, probe this area with a wire bent 90 degrees and on end no longer than will fit the keyhole, if you do not touch and obstruction either rusted in place or under spring tension in this area, you can completely bypass it in picking, its only a ward to keep out similiar keys.

[fcukniles]

let us know how you get on, i would like to know whats inside

[davhamilton]

I'm still working on it, but I had to take a break to do actual work for my
job so I don't get in trouble. I started trying to take a rivet off and found
that is really hard to do (I guess that should be obvious, otherwise the box
wouldn't be very secure). So I decided to take the pin out so I could get
more leverage inside.

Once I did that, I was trying with my coat hangers without any success, so
I decided to try using a screwdriver and a hammer to try to see if I could
have any luck moving things inside. I don't want to hurt the lock
mechanism, but I wasn't having any luck. With a few good whacks the
lever started moving and lots of rust came flying down and out. When I
looked up inside after it moved I found there are 3 levers. The middle one
appears to be as high up as it can go, but the 1st and the 3rd levers are
down about 1-2 millimeters. I can't seem to get either one up any further,
and #1, closest to the keyhole is impossible for me to get any leverage
on. I have tried various screwdrivers, the coathanger, special wrenches
that have 90 degree angles, but I can't budge it or #3 up any more.

The other part, the talon is a different story. it isn't shaped the same way
as in the picture provided earlier. This is what I can see of it in the lock:

Code: Select all

         /
________/


I've tried prying it from the right with no success, it doesn't budge.
I tried prying it upwards, no dice.
I tried to work it to the right, but there is no left side I can get access to.
I can't see another end to this thing no matter how hard I peer in the keyhole.
If I had the key, how would it move this talon thing?

So is my goal basically to get all of the levers up as high as they can go,
and then the talon should slide over? Or do the levers go up a certain
distance and then over in some direction?

I also forgot to mention that the building above was a bank for a very long
time, and then after that it was a grocery store. There may not be
anything of value in it, it may even be empty. I'm hoping it has at least
some odds and ends from the 1800s in it, which would make it worth it,
even if they are 'junk' or worthless. I do still want to preserve it as much
as I can, but also thought that if I can get the old lock off and get inside, it
should be possible to put a different lock on that I would have the key for. It would make a great place to store valuables.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and that I don't have any further answers really yet. I am looking forward to getting it open, regardless of the outcome. I'll let all of you know whatever ends up happening.

[MrB]

From your efforts so far, trying to remove rivets, taking the pin out the middle, whacking with a hammer and screwdriver ( ) it sounds like you are destroying an antique. Patience, man, patience!

Have you tried flooding it with WD40 and waiting a day or two, before attempting to destroy it?

As far as the levers go, they do not need to be lifted as far as possible, they need to be lifted just the right amount, not to much and not too little. Each lever would normally need to be lifted a different amount, according to the cuts on the key. If the lock were in good working order, carefully lifting each of the levers just the right amount would be picking the lock.

IMHO, you should spend time researching this puzzle, not go attacking it like a hoodlum. You would want to find out about locks of a similar kind, see how they are constructed inside, maybe try to use a scope to look inside the keyhole and get a better picture of the mechanism. Do what someone said, try to find keys of a time period and kind that would fit the lock and see what they look like.

[shrug] Just my opinion.

[davhamilton]

I apologize and will try to take it slower. It is no excuse, but I have
a one month old who keeps me up most of the night, so I don't get much
sleep. When I read suggestions I just go try them, without really thinking
about what I am doing sometimes. I didn't have wd40 and have to go get
some tonight, then I will try to let it do its work. I really did use to have
patience, but I get kept so busy I am not usually allowed to have free time
to do something that I want to do. As far as going around to locksmiths,
no time for it. There are no museums around me other than country
music museums even if I had time, and I've spent many days and
sleepless nights researching google newsgroups, web pages, etc... It is so
hard to find anything on older locks that really talks about how to work on
them. If I had free time I could get to the library, but it isn't open late at
night when I have a little bit of free time.

The MIT Guide to Lockpicking is very well written, but it doesn't talk at all
about the style of lock that I am dealing with, I wish somebody would write
one for these locks, even if they aren't as common anymore.

I'm not trying to make excuses for myself, and I realize I haven't been a
very good caretaker of this strong box, and will ease off and not be so
quick to try various suggestions (although my sleep deprived mind came
up with the screwdriver and hammer out of frustration). Anyway, in a few
hours I can go get some wd40, turn my box upside down and saturate the
lock with wd40.

Sorry,
Dave

[bigbike]

It looks like a simple old skeleton key will probably do it. I have a few (hundred) of em around here and they can always be cut down to fit the lock your are working on. I hope there is something other than rust inside that box for all the money and aggrivation you have had withit.

[vector40]

By the way, dav, regarding our initial suggestions on page 1 -- we aren't actually crazy, we just were assuming that you had a warded lock, rather than a lever lock. Ignore.

[MrB]

No need to apologise, it's your box. But you did spend a lot of money on it, so it would be a shame to damage it needlessly.

When all is said and done, the lock might be totally seized, and you might have to drill somewhere to open the box, but at least that could be a last resort.

If we suppose you had the key, then when the key turned in the lock it would have to move some kind of bolt or latch holding the lid shut, and for strength it was probably made out of steel. It is reasonable to fear that the steel has rusted and the bolt could be very hard to budge even with the key. But I think it's probably still worth trying to pick the lock and finding out for sure before getting more destructive.

If you do resort to more agressive measures, you could perhaps drill a small hole on the opposite side of the box from the lock at about the same height. By peering through this hole you could see what the bolt looks like, and using a long thin rod, you could possibly move it back and forth a bit to free up any stickiness. Then you could try to pick the lock by pushing on the bolt and lifting the levers inside the lock until they set. This is only a guess though, since I have never seen such a box or done anything like that.

[davhamilton]

Vector40, I never said any of you were crazy, I appreciate any and all
suggestions, which is why I posted to this forum originally, hoping for help
from people regarding this lock. I didn't know anything about the lock I
was dealing with when I first started. Even now I'm still learning about it.

What I should have done (I will remember this for all antique unopened
strong boxes I buy in the future):
1. Started with the wd40 and let it soak upside down for 1-2 days.
2. Try my coat hangers again.
3. If that fails, try to obtain old keys and modify one to fit the lock.
4. If that fails, I could either:
a. break off the key pin
b. remove the rivets and attempt to remove the lock that way
c. drill a hole in it and then cut a big square with a jigsaw (although I
see where somebody attempted drilling previously and didn't make it very
far)

or, instead of all of that,
lug the 255 pound beast to a locksmith, or pay a locksmith to come over
and open it

I think that covers all of the advice that I've gotten, other than just leave it
alone and let curiousity drive me crazy for the rest of my life. My problem
was skipping 1, then jumping straight to 4b, then 4a when I realized rivets
are hard to get off without a metal chisel, and then following up with a
hammer and screwdriver, which nobody recommended. Luckily I didn't do
very much damage to the rivet I tried to get off, so I can hammer the
edges back down and it will look about the same.

I'm also pretty sure that I can crazy glue the key pin back on when I'm
done opening the lock. It came off very cleanly after I rocked it back and forth a little bit. Hopefully I haven't actually wrecked anything in the lock
mechanism itself. I'll be getting wd40 pretty soon, and then I'll just let
that sucker soak and hopefully the lock will move a lot better after that.

The only thing I'm fairly sure of is that nobody has opened this lock in a
very, very long time. I was afraid the person I bought it from had really
opened it and stripped the contents, but if he had, I would be able to open
it because he would have had to get the lock mechanism working again
and get all of the rust off the top lid first. I hope it is more than rust inside
too.

No matter what, it has been a great learning experience of what to do and
not to do to a locked strong box.

Dave