Bypass techniquest for the Emergancy services???

[bpdalvarez]

WELL I THINK THAT IT COULD BE GOOD, I AM WHAT I CONSIDER A NOVICE WHEN I COMES TO LOCK PICKING, AND BY PASSING, AS A COP IN RURAL SOUTH TEXAS, I GET CALLED TO ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF, MOSTLY CHILDREN LOCKED IN CARS, OR OLD LADIES WHO HAVE FALLEN AND CAN NOT GET UP, I AM THE ONLY ONE THAT GETS CALLED TO UNLOCK DOORS, OPEN CARS, AND I THINK THAT THE COURSE OFFERED ON LINE, AND SEVERAL LOOK AND LEARN, THEN PERFORMS SITUATIONS, ANY ONE WITH ANY COMMON SENSE CAN SEE IT IS VERY EASY TO LEARN THE BUMP KEY METHOD, AND OR THE BYPASS METHOD, I USE THEM BOTH, I EVEN USE THE DESTRUCTION METHOD FOR SEVERAL OTHER THINGS, I SAY THAT NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION, WILL AND CAN CHANGE, JUST TAKE YOUR TIME AND THINK, YOU WILL GET IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, EMS, FIRE, OR LE IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THEY USE, JUST TRUST IN THEM, THEY WILL GET THE JOB DONE

[AUGOLDMINER]

As a ex vol fireman in most cases we just kick the door in.

But if that dos not work we have a cutter head for our jaws of life that will cut off a door handle or a dead bolt lock.

if it was a lockout every one in town knew that i had a auto lockout kit and pick set. As it would take over a hour for the nearest locksmith to drive to the town. plus $$$.

I was a small town of about 100 people and some people would give the fire chief a spare house key that we keep in a locked box on the town fire truck.

[grim]

WELL I THINK THAT IT ...

whoa dude. a couple of things i'd like to bring to your attention.

#1
all-caps is considered bad-form for posting. it's the net-equivalent of shouting. (in my case, i'm just too lazy to hit the shift-key most of the time, so it just comes naturally to me)

#2
try to break up your thoughts with punctuation and spacing. it makes a post SO much nicer to read. text that's all cramed together strains the synapses. and frankly, that's not a good feeling at 0300.

now my hair hurts.

[Raccoon]

im a fire fighter i have been trained to use a couple things for emergency entry but they are all destructive methods

k-12 saw

good old set of irons ( axe + halligan bar)

duck bill lock breaker - a metal wedge that is forced between the shackle on padlocks and is forced farther into the shackle by the back of an axe head, and the force spreads the shackles apart and breaks it

rabbit tool , like a mini hydraulic spreader for a door jam, forces jam away from door.

You forgot to mention the most common method.

Breaking a window.

If there is one thing that people overlook the most, it's that thin plate of glass that separates emergency help from the victim. People expect fire fighters to carry around slimjims and other vehicle entry tools, when the ONLY tool they need (and SHOULD use) is a hammer. Time is of the essence, and no bypass is faster than "smash and grab" when every second counts.

[BazookaMedic]

Option number 3: When the door can not be kicked down, no window to go through, and no bypass, or picking experience< Go through the wall.

In residential areas interior walls are very ceaply made. Sometime there is not even that thick of ply-wood on it. So you have dry wall some ply wood, you can hack through that with an axe, and the studs (watch out they hurt). So just charge through the wall if all else fails.

[FiapFiak]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up this point against using bumpkeys for emergency service personel:

You have to carry around with you a hell of alot of bump keys,
You have to be able to identify the lock type/keyway in a high stress situation,
You need to in a high adrenaline situation be able to sort through and pull out that one key out of 10-40 keys you have on you.

Tell me, is it that great of an idea to do this? It will take alot more time than just breaking down the door.

[mylt1]

you guys are missing something. as a fire fighter/medic is all about customer service. it doesnt look good when you kick down every little ol ladys door or shatter out a window just because she has fallen. if i have a nondistructive way to get in i will use it. its one of the reasons im here, to learn other means of entry. WE DO NOT CARRY FORCABLE ENTRY TOOLS ON AN AMBULANCE. its also a little harder than you think to kick a door in. so if you have to wait for an engine crew or the police(if they have any tools) any time waisted there could have been used to either try a bump key or a pick set. you also have to think about if you transport this person to the hospital you have just opened there house up to anyone that just wants to walk in and take what they will. that is a liability to us. we did the damage so really we could be held responsible for anything missing or damaged. in this day and age everyone is lawyer happy and looking for a reason to make a quick buck. do we do forcable entry? yes. do we do it in a nonlife threating situation? not if we can help it. hope this enlightens so of you.

[unjust]

reason to enter. if you have to force entry that may be outside of your liability coverage, or outside of the legal scope for a non LEO in your jurisdiction.

i.e. if you HAVE to get in NOW to save a life it's defensable to break in. if you think it might be important to get in, then you can either wait for someone who can legally do so, or not go in.

all about scope and responsibility. otherwise any emt at a door that's not opened when they expect it to be could pick it to get inside to check it out.

[Belfast_ken]

Well in my old place of work if we needed in somwhere , we got in!! Shorest and quickest route possible!!! The damage can be fixed later!!!

[unjust]

exactly.

now, in the case of a high security door in a well secured house, a bump key or pickset may well be the fastest way in short of opening a 10K french door, but realistically, a window will repair, a guy w/ a stroke on the floor is a lot harder.

[JackNco]

what the hell, ok so the forums stoped emailing me about this thread....

I liked the point about 40 keys in you pocked and identifying the lock i hant thought of that...

[devildog]

now, in the case of a high security door in a well secured house, a bump key or pickset may well be the fastest way in short of opening a 10K french door

Not really. With a high-security lock bump keys generally won't work (Mul-T-Lock is the sole exception here, but that gets very very ify so it's not even really practical even though it's possible)--Medeco, Abloy, ASSA anything-with-a-sidebar, Schlage Primus, anything electronic, etc.

[JackNco]

now, in the case of a high security door in a well secured house, a bump key or pickset may well be the fastest way in short of opening a 10K french door

Not really. With a high-security lock bump keys generally won't work (Mul-T-Lock is the sole exception here, but that gets very very ify so it's not even really practical even though it's possible)--Medeco, Abloy, ASSA anything-with-a-sidebar, Schlage Primus, anything electronic, etc.

What about just a really thick door that ur average ambulance driver cant break down and double glazed/bared windows ?

[Vincent-XXI]

I tink its too much effort to equip them with knowledge of NDE, just for some hypothetical circumstance. Bumping will get them through many locks with a good bit of practice, but then thers the carrying huge rings of different bump keys, the unbumpable pin tumblar locks, electronic locks, other types of locks ie lever (around here every house has BS levers on its doors,)

In the case of here bumping would be a waste of time unless quick methods of bypassing lever locks were also taught, perhaps in countries or areas where cheap bumpable locks are the only things on the door there may be an advantage to teaching that for use in non-emergency situations.

What about just a really thick door that ur average ambulance driver cant break down and double glazed/bared windows ?
-ram the door with the ambulance
- check the backdoor
-perhaps the upstairs windows are accessible
-get out the equipment and realise thing will take a while.

If you want to play with hypotheticals..
What about just a really thick door that ur average ambulance driver cant break down and double glazed/bared windows, where the doors all have BS levers, top of the range cylinders?

[williadv]

I've been a FF/EMT for 15+ years in Seattle, WA and have been in many, many situations from fires to welfare checks initiated by a second-hand call from cross-country (where the caller is not absolutely sure of the address) in which we've had to gain entry to a residence or business without keys or assistance.

Most emergency professionals can make the distinction when destructive entry is absolutely warranted because of the time factor. Many buildings in Seattle have key vaults with entry keys for fire department use only.

NDE is certainly not called for in all situations but wouldn't be a bad tool to have in the toolbox. I can recall a particular situation wherein the patient had a stroke, called 9-1-1 from a cell phone (no enhanced 9-1-1 with automatic address) but was confused as to their apartment number. We responded to the apartment number they gave us, knocked, and then forced entry with our "irons" (axe/halligan). Imagine our chagrin when it was the wrong apartment with no one at home. This was a 50+ unit apartment building. Obviously we couldn't go around forcing entry into all the units. We eventually found the patient and everything worked out but perhaps if we'd had some NDE techniques to try (without spending too much time), the residents whose door we broke would have been spared a fair amount of inconvenience.

It would seem to me from the reading I've done that 10 or so bump keys would get us into the majority of residences around here. I agree that carrying 40 bump keys around wouldn't be feasible. My point is that axes, ladders, saws, or a size 13 boot are not the appropriate tools for every situation and if we broke your triple-paned window out because someone gave us the wrong address, you'd probably understand it was an honest mistake, but it would suck for you - especially during the winter.

Whenever we force entry, we're supposed to call for the police so that's one less police officer available to respond to other calls.

That's my 2 cents and then some. I just felt like chiming in.

Happy new year!