Bypass techniquest for the Emergancy services???

by **JackNco** » 2 Jan 2007 15:17

didnt think ide see this old thread back. cheers for the points. i guess the conclusion is that it could be good in some circumstances. but is it worth pulling people off the job for training just in case?

John

by **unjust** » 2 Jan 2007 16:10

in another thread on bumping someone linked to a patent for an auto bump mechanism where you put appropriate key in, and it times the twist with the whack, from the 30's iirc. a device like that -might- be useful, but again you have to look at the property owner rights involved. if it is a necessity to get in, destructive methods are 99/100 far faster and how many first responders do you know who want to add MORE metal to their kit to carry up to a 5th floor walkup?

i just don't see the cost benefit for bringing along extra kit for limited application that could expose you to HUGE liability issues. if it's a real emergency everyone understands non-passive failure induction in a lock, if there's time to fiddle with picking the right key, and then stickign it in the gizmo, then trying it a few times, isn't the axe a bit faster?

by **Iceberg_Slim** » 2 Jan 2007 20:06

i talked to people in the "know" and the reason they dont teach this is becuase of LIABILITY ISSUES, they dont even take the time to go over if its feasible or not, its all "NO" across the board. due to laws and liability.

by **JackNco** » 2 Jan 2007 20:07

thats somethign i didnt think of

by **jiggler** » 3 Jan 2007 3:15

JackNco wrote:Thermite-pick? is this an actual product or just the idea of burning a lock out?

These don't use thermite but they get hot enough to go through a door...
http://www.multipick-service.cc/htdocs/ ... rmolanzen/

This one's made for military purposes and rescue operations apparently...
http://www.strongweldingproducts.com/br ... 5V2HR.html

10,000 degrees C!! Wow!...
http://www.strongweldingproducts.com/br ... stems.html

They won't be putting them in ambulances anytime soon I reckon?

Wouldn't an ambulance crew call the fire brigade if they're really stuck and couldn't get in to help someone? The fire brigade could get in pretty much anywhere with their kit. There'd be a short delay for the gear to arrive but they'd get in alright. I think the people writing the cheques would rather use this procedure for the few times the ambulance crew can't get in, rather than equip every ambulance with specialised equipment?

by **Tyler Durden** » 3 Jan 2007 4:38

I had a call a couple of weeks ago.

"We think my mother has collapsed in her house & we have no key"

" We've already called the ambulance, can you get here and get us in before they arrive?"

"Yeah, no problem" I said.

Iturned up, picked a euro cylinder, in the family went, 2mins later ambulance crew arrived.

Job done, totally NDE.

by **mercurial** » 3 Jan 2007 5:27

jiggler wrote:
10,000 degrees C!! Wow!...
http://www.strongweldingproducts.com/br ... stems.html

The 10,000C seemed too massive(to the point of impossibility) to be true, so I had to follow the link and check.

It turns out that it is 10,000 degrees Fahranheit, not Celsius - converting 10,000F into Celcius places this thermic lance at the same working temperature of the others listed.

...Mark

by **JackNco** » 3 Jan 2007 13:37

lol i was thinking something smaller using thermite. but yes a thermic lance would *pick* just about anything...

by **JackNco** » 3 Jan 2007 13:38

Tyler Durden wrote:I had a call a couple of weeks ago.

"We think my mother has collapsed in her house & we have no key"

" We've already called the ambulance, can you get here and get us in before they arrive?"

"Yeah, no problem" I said.

Iturned up, picked a euro cylinder, in the family went, 2mins later ambulance crew arrived.

Job done, totally NDE.

That wouldn't be a bad idea. if the emergency services got in touch with a local locksmith. maybe even give u flashing light for emergencies

by **unjust** » 3 Jan 2007 20:53

uhm not to whine, but iirc i mentioned the liability issue a ways back in this thread.

by **JackNco** » 3 Jan 2007 22:47

im sure there would bea work around liek asking if they could send a lockie over?

by **Firearm** » 4 Jan 2007 0:02

Actually, I think the idea of this thread is a good one and one I have thought of with my job. A lot of times we get "check welfare" calls where we believe someone is in the apartment/home and no one has seen them in days. No one answers the door and it's locked. A lot of the time we boot the door or break a window only to find that they are away or sleeping and didn't hear the door. It would be nice to be able to access without causing damage that I have to secure before I leave.

by **Iceberg_Slim** » 4 Jan 2007 0:17

the situation presented just above where the homeowners immediate family GAVE permission for locksmith to enter can be used, but the liabilty i am speaking of is when you present someone with this knowledge of how to break into someones home and in turn that person uses that knowledge to commit crimes, no one wants to be responsible for that, therefore, this method of gaining entry into a residence is not widley taught and/ or promoted. there are tried and trusted methods in place by fire departments to gain entry, it might be messy but its what you are trained to do.

1 thing that is coming into more regular use in cities, is the knox box.
read up, my fire dept uses them on a few businesses, i myself have not seen them used on residences.

http://www.knoxbox.com

by **JackNco** » 4 Jan 2007 0:18

Firearm wrote:Actually, I think the idea of this thread is a good one and one I have thought of with my job. A lot of times we get "check welfare" calls where we believe someone is in the apartment/home and no one has seen them in days. No one answers the door and it's locked. A lot of the time we boot the door or break a window only to find that they are away or sleeping and didn't hear the door. It would be nice to be able to access without causing damage that I have to secure before I leave.

Maybe if 1 in 4 were trained in it for this?

by **unjust** » 4 Jan 2007 14:41

iceberg: misuse of training is -off the job- is not a department/employer liability issue, it is a personal misuse issue. i.e. a cop knows how to apply hand cuffs appropriately, and cuffs someone in his side job -as a civilian- working security at a night club. he, and not the pd are liable for that action.

there is a significant liability concern however in the application of "force" to enter a space, provided that it is nominally secured (i.e. locked) just as there is liability over application of deadly force to individuals.

to clarify: most armed LEO groups have shoot to kill directives if they are usign a firearm. the idea behind this is that should bullet recipient be killed while being shot to subdue, then excessive force was used, and they were killed unnecessarily, where as if they live through torso shots less force than intended (and required by their need to protect life and shoot) was applied.

in entering a property you have only 2 choices. you get in conventionally, or you bypass something, be it a lock, crawling in an open window, or whatever. IN AN EMERGENCY to enter you must do so in teh most expeditous fashion to protect life/property or risk being liable for damage the occured in that delay. in a NONemergency, like a check status call, then nondestructive means are certainly called for, but again this can be accomplished by a dept locksmith, calling one in, or calling the 1-2 persons on duty with the kit/training.

many cops carry vehicle lockout kits in their cars, and some will do free lockouts if they have time as a community service, however they also carry window punches for *emergency* access.

Bypass techniquest for the Emergancy services???

Who is online