Question about Tools used to open closed but unlocked doors

by **thertel** » 11 Nov 2004 0:46

A handle at that angle I believe would violate ADA codes, as far as my reading of the ADA regs goes anyway.

Thomas

by **TheProfessor** » 11 Nov 2004 0:48

really ?!, why is that

by **thertel** » 11 Nov 2004 1:10

The handle has to be able to be operate under fire codes from a crawl on the floor, and a handle that points upwards would not meet the requirement, not would it meet hte ADA spec for lever handles. Now this is just how I read the codes, and may not be how your local fire inspector and code inspector may see them.

Thomas

by **sakuradeiku** » 24 Nov 2004 17:02

the problem with changing the orientation of the handle is that you are violating fire laws. We are looking into adding a wooden plate onto the door itself causing the tool to be unable to be used. Is there a place where I would be able to purchase the tool being used? The K-22?

sakuradeiku

by **toomush2drink** » 24 Nov 2004 17:06

Why dont you make your own as it shouldnt be to hard to copy in this instance. If you made your own you would have more understanding of its weakness's etc. :wink:

by **locksmistress** » 25 Nov 2004 19:51

How about an automatic door bottom?

http://hagerco.com/catalog/prodGroup.asp?c=77&p=793#pg793

by **randmguy** » 27 Nov 2004 0:56

If you've got the more modern "loop" style levers you can just put a large spool head push pin directly under the handle where it is closest to the door. I had a student figure this one out in about 30 seconds when we discovered that someone was using a home made "letter box" tool to open a vacant house for weekend parties. You can open the door from the inside with very little effort but I've tried the Keedex tool and all you're likely to accomplish is bending your tool or breaking the cord.

Yes, it is still technically a violation of both fire and ADA codes but it is cheap and simple.

Another option is the installation of anti-kick or correctional levers. They are handles with the curve ending very close to the door's inner surface and they have a steel pin that slides through an arc cut into the lock case. They are a pain to install (think 10" deep mortise cut) but they do stop the use of the Keedex K22. With a properly installed strike the K22 will not work if you can't get the cord placed as indicated in the instructions.

by **S&G** » 11 Mar 2006 16:03

Just a thought on the fly...
Could a strong rare-earth magnet be mounted to the door, near the open end of the handle to snare the opening tool?

Thoughts on this idea?

by **searsman05** » 12 Mar 2006 20:21

I am not sure if this would work for you but maybe think about using an exit device that way is is up to fire specs and can not be pulled down.

I am not sure exactly what lock is on the door now but maybe you could work out something to so it would work with an exit device. This way the inside will always be unlocked and it still can be unlocked from outside.

Here is some info on one:

http://www.jacksonexit.com/catalog/B10.pdf

And something like this can be used on the outside:

http://www.jacksonexit.com/catalog/B15.pdf

They usually run around $250 or so.

-James

by **TOWCH** » 12 Mar 2006 21:48

Last time I was at a hotel I got bored and came up with a way to do this trick through the peep hole with some string and some strong magnets.

by **S&G** » 13 Mar 2006 0:22

But an exit device is an expensive solution and if it is an in-swinging door, that takes it right off the table.

How about a single cylinder deadbolt?

Does the handycap law forbid deadbolts?

I understand our rules read:
i) no special knowledge required to operate locking device
ii) single action egress (which this is not, but...) for a marked FIRE EXIT

This is a small room right?
And the chances of being fire inspected are nil.
And if there was a fire and someone had to exit, this wouldn't be a problem if you ...
--- weakly tape a small box over the handle on the inside.
IF there was a fire, any non-Darwin candidates will yank the box and exit.
If you got caught, say it must have been a joke, don't know who.
But it's not permanent so no harm done. "
Won't get caught, er-, happen again".

At worst, a verbal or written warning, but in the mean time, no break-in.

Do the magnet thing too. Make it so irritating they'll stop trying.
Would be a howl to arrive in the morning with several of their tools trapped in the door after a vein attempt to free them.
LMAO !!
When I was done laughing, ... get a coffee... , then call security.

If they still get in, they have a key, or equiv.
That's a different game.

For less than a panic bar installed, you could buy 2 spy cams and watch what they ARE doing. And who !!
One in the ceiling outside the door looking down, the other inside.

by **S&G** » 13 Mar 2006 0:48

the panic bar...

if a tool can be made to manipulate the lever, why would someone NOT make an under-the-door L shaped bar (flat, wide,and rigid) and do essentially the same to the panic bar?

I once saw a robbery movie where they drilled from the outside, a hole through a back-alley steel door using a hole saw, slid a collapsed umbrella through the hole, opened the umbrella, yanked it back toward the door.
The arms of the umbrella pressed on the touch-bar panic set.
The door opens.
Then they stick that neat radio-controlled solonoid inside the p-bar...
I think it was "The Brinks Job".

I've seen mail slots mounted beneath panic-bars, and warned clients of the problem.
Most do something about it.
But ya really gotta wonder... some dumb /\ss went ahead and installed that.

by **searsman05** » 13 Mar 2006 1:12

Well you gotta look at it this way if they want in they will get in. no matter what lock is on what door or invention there is a way in no matter what. If you get in by picking drilling smashing something it will all get you in. I think the best way is to turn on the alarm. I know most schools etc have them. And if you wanna catch them install a camera on the doors so even if they do get in they are on camera and the cops can do something about it.

I mean even if you install something on the bottom of the door etc they can still drill a hole thought the door and pull the lever. they could pick the door steal keys or even drill the cylinder out.

I mean if I wanted in somewhere bad enough I would be in. If they stopped me one way i would figure out another. if it is someone in the building all they have to do is have a teachers keys or even get a close long look at them and cut it later and bam there in easy.

With a camera, alarm or something like that even if they do open the door in anyway way they are right on camera. I don't think that they are gonna cut a hole in the roof or something to get to the camera wires.

You gotta try and think smarter then them. If it is indeed someone in the class or building then just installing cameras would make them think twice about it. I personally would install small or hidden cameras so they don't even know where they are. Or i would just invest in an alarm.

-James

by **S&G** » 13 Mar 2006 1:30

Your points are good, but I believe it's about sneaky access, no signs of forced entry.
Nobody is drilling holes in this thread.
And yes if they want in, they will get in.
Locks buy you time.
Alarms are cumbersome and not likely will your room get wired first if the board approves your idea.
Besides, they could be in and gone before someone comes with what they wanted.

But if we know the suspected method of attack, and the tool used as to the degree of sophisication they will goto, well, this is about how to beat them, one step ahead.

Cameras won't help if they are disguised or know where they are (inside job) and blind them with a flash light.

by **lockedin** » 17 Mar 2006 2:24

From Alias's response last page:

I haven't heard any reasons why my idea wouldn't work. It doesn't interfere with the operation of the door or handle in any way (so no issues with ADA) - it simply blocks the tools access to the handle from underneath.

Can anyone discount my idea or does the drawing leave so much to be desired that noone can see what I'm getting at? Here's a 5 minute 'Gimped' isometric view...

With the skirt in place (and adjusted to an appropriate positon) I simply can't see how you'd alter the tool to get it to engage the handle and still have sufficient leverage to provide enough downforce to pull it (assuming you could even get to the handle).

Anyone?

I know this thread is hecka old, but since somebody responded to it, shouldn't alias's response from the last page have been the end of the discussion? It seemed like the most simple solution.

Question about Tools used to open closed but unlocked doors

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