Bypass techniquest for the Emergancy services???

[williadv]

the situation presented just above where the homeowners immediate family GAVE permission for locksmith to enter can be used, but the liabilty i am speaking of is when you present someone with this knowledge of how to break into someones home and in turn that person uses that knowledge to commit crimes, no one wants to be responsible for that, therefore, this method of gaining entry into a residence is not widley taught and/ or promoted. there are tried and trusted methods in place by fire departments to gain entry, it might be messy but its what you are trained to do.

1 thing that is coming into more regular use in cities, is the knox box.
read up, my fire dept uses them on a few businesses, i myself have not seen them used on residences.

http://www.knoxbox.com

The cat is already out of the bag as far as knowledge about bumping. The tools and the knowledge are fairly readily available. I was a police officer for 8 years and (in Washington) the relatives of a person have no legal standing to give permission for entry to a premises unless they happen to live there (and then they'd have a key).

I know a lot of ways to break into homes. I think I've seen most of them after 8 years as a police officer and 15 years as a firefighter. You can't really stop someone who wants to get into your house without making your house into a bunker.

The citizens of our community entrust us to use our tools and knowledge for the public good. That's not to say some locality's risk manager would not want to assume the liability for maintaining control of the tools for NDE.

We use Knox boxes here in Seattle as well - primarily on multi-family residences and some commercial occupancies. They are a little pricey for single family residences ($199 + installation costs).

No city is going to give locksmiths "lights" to respond to an incident. There's HUGE liability with breaking traffic laws while responding to an incident scene. Any incident that might predicate an "emergency" response by a locksmith would probably be grounds for destructive entry.

I'm just trying to provide the best service to my community. If I can break fewer doors/windows while performing my duties in a professional/responsible manner, I think that would be a good thing and I would guess that many of the property owners whose doors/windows have been broken by me would agree. If you don't trust your emergency service providers enough to provide them with this tool, that's your choice.

By the way, we receive our training on-shift and there would be no need to remove units from service for this type of training. Additionally, in Seattle, the fire department is the primary provider of EMS (emergency medical services) and ambulances are only used for BLS (basic life support - non-emergent) transport. Where you live there may certainly be a different model for delivering medical aid to the citizens.

...to clarify: most armed LEO groups have shoot to kill directives if they are usign a firearm. the idea behind this is that should bullet recipient be killed while being shot to subdue, then excessive force was used, and they were killed unnecessarily, where as if they live through torso shots less force than intended (and required by their need to protect life and shoot) was applied...

Deadly force is only authorized to protect a life in imminent danger, yours or another's. In my experience, if a police officer is shooting at someone, they are trying to kill them. I have never heard of "shooting to subdue" from anyone in LE. In our quarterly range quals, our practice was "two to the chest, one to the head." There was no ambiguity.

[mfschantz]

I know the fire department has duties other than responding to fires. With that said, in the case of a building on fire, destroying a door really doesn't matter considering that the building is already damaged from fire. If the property is insured, it'll be covered. If the property is not insured, the owner has a lot higher expenses to worry about than replacing a door/jamb. This isn't even to consider the emergency value of getting in immediately.

In the case of EMS. We all pretty much agree that immediate or destructive entry is necessary in an emergency. It's the non-emergencies where bumping/picking would arguably be valuable. In the case of a non-emergency, wouldn't the owner be conscious and perfectly able to let the paramedics in? I imagine unconsciousness or unresponsiveness to knocking would turn a "routine" call into an emergency situation thus justifying forcible entry. You don't know what's going on inside necessarily, so assume the worst so that the caller can receive the greatest medical attention.

I can see the usefulness for Law Enforcement Officers to have these tools/skills. Say there is suspect for something or another that he/she didn't do, and the police had obtained a warrant to search his/her house while he/she is not there. Breaking down the door of an innocent person would only add to his/her misery of being suspected in the first place.

Finally, I would like to point out that the decision an emergency responder would need to make to kick down the door or grab the bump keys would add to the entry time no matter which they chose (albeit it would be only a short time in most cases). Without the confusion, they can show up, knock down the door or break the window and be in much faster.

[Firearm]

FYI, we shoot to "stop the threat". Nothing more, nothing less. There is no "shoot to kill" anymore. If stopping the threat means they die, I cannot avoid that. If the person doesn't die, but is no longer a threat I turn from that role to "caretaker" and try to keep them alive. Just thought I'd throw this in here.

[williadv]

...It's the non-emergencies where bumping/picking would arguably be valuable. In the case of a non-emergency, wouldn't the owner be conscious and perfectly able to let the paramedics in? I imagine unconsciousness or unresponsiveness to knocking would turn a "routine" call into an emergency situation thus justifying forcible entry. You don't know what's going on inside necessarily, so assume the worst so that the caller can receive the greatest medical attention...

The fairly recent advent of automatic medical alarms (the "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!" commercials you may have seen on TV) have initiated many alarms (1000's per year in Seattle alone) where typically geriatric, infirm, or possibly partially paralyzed citizens fall (without injury) and are unable to arise or move very far on the floor. They call for assistance using their alarm or by telephone if one is nearby. They aren't ill or injured. They just need assistance from the floor to their bed, wheelchair, commode, etc...

Residential fire alarm systems initiate false alarms through system malfunctions all the time. I've been to 100's of residential fire alarms and I can only think of two that were actually incipient fires and yes, we broke down the doors to get to the burning food.

No response to a knock/doorbell may also mean they are shopping/at work/on vacation, we were given the wrong address, they are sleeping, they're intoxicated or any number of things. I have no problem with destructive entry when it's warranted. I'm not going to debate every possible scenario with you. You really just aren't aware of what we do and the decisions we make on a daily basis as well as our process for making those decisions.

FYI, we shoot to "stop the threat". Nothing more, nothing less. There is no "shoot to kill" anymore. ...

I agree that the ultimate goal is shooting to "stop the threat." However, I think it would be naive to say that the intentional discharge of a firearm by a trained professional with the intent to cause harm to another - generally at least a double tap to the box - is anything less than an attempt to kill that person at that immediate instant. If you hit center of mass with two hollow-point duty rounds, they will die. If your intent, at that instant, is not to kill, then non-lethal methods should be engaged. Obviously, once the threat of deadly force is removed, a lethal response is NOT called for. LE officers should be making constant evaluations of the situation and how much force is appropriate. In my opinion, shooting to stop is a euphemism. If they are dead, they're stopped. I don't want to hijack this thread. NDE is about as far from deadly force as you can get.

[jabial]

It's totally off-topic but do you know of an online shop that would sell alarms for the elderly, that ships to Europe?
Oh, and for the same old person I'm also looking for a device that allows to find lost keys when you don't know where you put them.

[mfschantz]

You really just aren't aware of what we do and the decisions we make on a daily basis as well as our process for making those decisions.

And you're right, FTW. I should simply have stated that from my point of view as a civilian without training in such circumstances, I do not believe emergency personnel should be required to have training in bump techniques.

I really do see your point with the life alerts though.

[SmokieD]

K 12 saw, is a scary looking tool. Its like a circular saw attached to a chain saw. Funny enough, i wonder why fireman dont just use a chainsaw instead.

[Iceberg_Slim]

using a k12 or just a chainsaw on a plain wooden door is OVERKILL. when u have at your disposal

axe

halligan bar

rabbit tool

duck bill lock breakers

[williadv]

It's totally off-topic but do you know of an online shop that would sell alarms for the elderly, that ships to Europe?
Oh, and for the same old person I'm also looking for a device that allows to find lost keys when you don't know where you put them.

Sharper Image sells an "Ultra 8 Wireless RF Electronic Locater." I've never used this particular model but something like that would fit your needs, I would think. The product number is: SI676FUN at Sharper Image's website.

One of the main features of the alarms for the elderly is that it's monitored by a company 24/7 not unlike a burglar/fire alarm. If the alarm is activated, the company tries to contact the subscriber and then notifies their local emergency services if appropriate. Even if a company would ship to Europe, the alarm without monitoring would not be nearly as effective.

K 12 saw, is a scary looking tool. Its like a circular saw attached to a chain saw. Funny enough, i wonder why fireman dont just use a chainsaw instead.

Rescue saws like the K12 have different uses than chainsaws. With a rescue saw, different blades may be used (wood, metal cutting, masonry) whereas our chainsaws are really just used for wood (possibly with a light covering of other materials e.g. siding, asphalt shingles, etc...). We use our chainsaws (Stihl 044 with carbide tipped blade on a 24" bar) primarily to cut roofs in vertical ventilation operations. Different materials (roofing, creosoted piers, etc...) can cause the chainsaws to bind and so the rescue saw might be a better tool. Rescue saws are also used for patient extrication from collapsed structures (masonry and rebar).

...I do not believe emergency personnel should be required to have training in bump techniques.

I agree it shouldn't be required; however, neither do I think it should be prohibited. I think it should be available - a tool in the toolbox to be used when appropriate. There are obviously many more important things for fire personnel to train on first but if department training budgets and calendars allow, I don't see any harm in it.

[mylt1]

ran into this week before last. got a call at 0615 for a 4 year old asthma attack. arrived on scene child was fine but hadnt had her meds for a few days and something trigged the attack. when i got there the grandmother had already given a treatment and child was fine but in the excitement the GM locked herself out with no keys. the refused transport and i had to gain entery for them. could have used a set of picks(didnt have a set then) but luckly it was an older trailer so the ol credit card trick worked because one door latch was lose. that night i printed out some pick outlines and mad a set of 3 picks and a tention wrench this week. they will find a home in my bag once i get good at useing them.

[unjust]

ok there seems to be a bit of confusion as to what i was attempting to communicate about use fo force.

there are *generaly* speaking several levels for use fo force:

verbal
unarmed (joint locks, bodily impact)
augmented (baton, asp, mace, tazer)
lethal (firearm, knife)

different places have different names and multiple levels, but, typically LEO can respond one level of force higher than is threatened to them, i.e. i'm going in swinging they can use a baton, or i'm threatening verbally they can physically restrain, however lethal force is usually reserved for lethal force threat as it can have permenant results. 2 bullets in teh torso is not inherently lethal, but there is a significant chance that the recipient is not going to survive. as a result of the irrevocable nature of that sort of force it is only applied where a comperable threat is applied, and there is not the possibility that it would be considered excessive force.

likewise in a emergency entry situation, you have 2 options (assuming the area is nominally secured) 1 you get in, 2 you dont. if you have to go in and violate personal property rights (in the usa) you have to be justified in doing so. in other words, if you -have- to go in -now- you have to use the most expeditous means of gaining entry, which is *usually* destructive. if you -need- to go in but there is no known imminent danger to life or property, then you have the obligation to use minimally or non desructive methods, as there is no justification for destroying property when there is no known threat to it.

so yes, imho a set of generic schlage/kwikset the top 10 keyway bumpkeys and a hammer should be included in the lockout kits that many police carry, however if EMS needs to get in they can either wait for a lockie or lockout equipped LEO. fire fighters could justifiably carry a set of common keyway bump keys to aid in breach of steel doors in concrete walls, but again it's going to be of limited application, and a tool in their box, not an every call item.

[JackNco]

so yes, imho a set of generic schlage/kwikset the top 10 keyway bumpkeys and a hammer should be included in the lockout kits that many police carry, however if EMS needs to get in they can either wait for a lockie or lockout equipped LEO. fire fighters could justifiably carry a set of common keyway bump keys to aid in breach of steel doors in concrete walls, but again it's going to be of limited application, and a tool in their box, not an every call item.

Thats very true but look how many tools the fire department already have. i assume many of them go months without use. but every now and again they do come in handy or even save some ones life.

This was just thrown out there as an idea and to get some people opinions. but it seems to have turned in to some kind of war between some members. involving talk about lethal force and some people getting a little bit offended by misconceptions about lethal force. lets keep it on topic and friendly please people.

i can see we will never come to any real conclusions but its nice to see so many people do think its wither a good or bad idea. its nice to hear all the view points.

John

[williadv]

I apologize if my posts re: force were too forceful. They were my opinions based upon my experience and training as a LE officer. John's right and I previously stated that discussion of that kind of application of force is better left to a different venue. People don't come here looking for that kind of information or debate.

I can tell you that here, in Seattle, we're not going to call locksmiths at 3 A.M. It's just not going to happen for a variety of reasons. As far as waiting for LE to show to get the door open, I often have to wait for 20 minutes or more for LE to show up for traffic accidents, suicidal patients, or other definitely more emergent type calls than NDE would be. That would keep a fire/EMS unit out of service for all other fires/CPR/hazmat/etc.... This could add 3 - 4 minutes or more to the response times for concurrent incidents because now units are responding from farther away, not to speak of the police unit now committed.

I think it would be a good, inexpensive tool that doesn't take much room on the engine to have available. As I previously stated about the "Life Alert" type medical alarms and residential fire alarm activations at unoccupied residences with no outward indication of smoke or fire that we might have the opportunity to use these tools many 1000's of times per year in my city.

In Seattle, I don't believe it's feasible to have our understaffed police department do NDE. On busy evenings on weekends, SPD can be 20 or more calls behind. We're not providing the best service to the citizens we serve IMO if we sit there out of service for 3 hours waiting for SPD and their bump keys.

I've talked to my chain of command and have already been given the go ahead to pursue it.

Peace!

[JackNco]

absolutely no reason to apologies. its good to hear experience from all walks of life. i was just trying to keep things on topic. i was basing what i knew about the emergency services on the British services.

Its absolutely great that you have been given the go ahead, weather it was inspiration from this thread or not its good to know that these forums are actually doing some good and may indeed improve the quality of life of some of the citizens you serve. and i hope you don't run in to any legal problems with it as i know the Americans have a massive suing culture thats starting to make its way over here.

All the best

John

[unjust]

i appologize for introducing the lethal force analogy. the point i was attempting to make is that entry is an either or choice, you don't sort of go in, and it's for the same liability reasons that leathal force is used/not used. if your actions might be irrevocable you better have a good air tight reason for doing something.

i think we all agree that in an emergency destructive entry is 99/100 the fastest way in, but that in a non-emergency it can be overkill.