Bypass techniquest for the Emergancy services???

[Iceberg_Slim]

i mentioned the K tool, but for the purpose of this forum , we wont go into much detail as its destructive opening and also considered advanced material which we dont talk about in the open access part of this forum.


other methods i slightly discussed was

duckbill lock breakers

k-12 saw (overkill but it does its job)

the good old set of irons (axe and halligan bar)

knox box systems

im really thinking that using bumpkeys on fire scenes MIGHT be utilized BUT any bumpkey is considered illegal or slightly illegal depending on circumstances. also depends on your local state and municipality laws. i am in NJ and i have read they are illegal, i could be wrong who knows.

[JackNco]

BUMP

This thing went on for ages when it was an active thread and we have had a massive turnover of members since then.

Last time It encouraged someone to get the go ahead and use bump keys where it would help. I like to think that it might have helped save someone so lets hear all the news guys opinions of the emergency cervices carrying bump keys.

John

[poor paperclip picker]

I think for sure that emergency personnel should be allowed to carry bump keys. It will be just another tool they can use to help save someones life. And if they are emergency personnel, then they will most likely only carry them while on the job or when they get an emergency call. I haven't done much research but im surprised that they aren't carry them already.

[bumber]

I think a breaching tool is much faster than fiddling with a bumpkey, if you have ANY trouble using one...put youself in a situation that could mean the life of someone else and lets see you fiddle around with a bumpkey and see how good you do...where as the guy with a door buster is all JACKED UP wanting to bust that door down.

[JackNco]

have a read through the first couple of pages, there are times when you cant break in a door or go through a window. what u need is a key. a very small percentage. but then again they are very small tools that are easy to use.

[globallockytoo]

I think a breaching tool is much faster than fiddling with a bumpkey, if you have ANY trouble using one...put youself in a situation that could mean the life of someone else and lets see you fiddle around with a bumpkey and see how good you do...where as the guy with a door buster is all JACKED UP wanting to bust that door down.

Breaching tool.....like in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uor16OYmKs

I especially like the bloopers at the end....."WHOOPS!"

[JackNco]

wow, snapped the door in 2. nice realistic training there then

[Afisch]

I'm guessing theyd be used more in the situation mentioned where there is an unlikely fire but it need checking out. If my house was on fire then I'd just want the door off fast. As these guys are allowed to carry an axe, bump keys are going to trouble that many people.

[JackNco]

well yes, if these guys want in they are getting in. if in the unlikely event that they do decide to break in the door may as well be in ntact. although that does raise insurance issues

[Eyes_Only]

To be totally honest I think the security industry discourages emergency personnel from getting their hands on tools like lockpicks cos they're afraid that once the fire department gets them, they'll pass it on to police officers.

And that would mean less business for locksmiths and believe me it will be less business cos there are a lot of times when we get called out by AAA to open a car with a baby locked inside and right before we arrive the call gets canceled cos the customer called a cop or flagged down one that was passing by and they managed to open the car for them before us.

This I personally don't mind at all cos I hate going out on calls like that. Especially in the summer when it gets real hot and you have to drive 100 mph on the streets to get to a customer thats 10-15 miles away. Yeah its less money for us locksmiths but I rather let the real emergency work be done by real emergency personnel that wields a spring loaded punch.

If it was up to me I would hold classes for fire departments on how to pick /bypass locks and all that good stuff cos this really can mean someones life but I think if my boss found out I'd get fired.

[melvin2001]

in my opinion lock opening technique is important to teach public safety personnel wether its destructive or not. the problem with the non destructive is the whole "is it necessary thing"... how many cops are going to go around fudging up peoples doors and stuff because they tried using a "non destructive" method of entry with little training (because lord knows their training is not going to take the place of real experience a locksmith would (hopefully) have) its like the whole less then lethal trend i have been seeing... just because a taser is less then lethal doesn't mean you should use it when someone gets mouthy... and just because some lady locked her purse in the car doesn't mean a cop should open it.... idk just a rant...

my point is that while it would be a valuable tool it could just end up being abused and cause damage or mayhem or whatever...

[Afisch]

Locksmiths could make quite alot of money teaching these guys.

[vmikulich]

I think a breaching tool is much faster than fiddling with a bumpkey, if you have ANY trouble using one...put youself in a situation that could mean the life of someone else and lets see you fiddle around with a bumpkey and see how good you do...where as the guy with a door buster is all JACKED UP wanting to bust that door down.

There are at least two police departments in Southern California that I know of which utilize non-destructive methods of entry during "wellfare checks." For example, a neighbor will call about an elderly individual who hasn't been seen for a few days. The officer who arrives will knock on the door to see if he can talk to the person, but will not want to kick the door in as there aren't enough facts to support such actions. In this case if they think something is wrong, because the neighbor assures the officer the elderly individual always tells her when she is traveling, he might call a trained officer who can open the door via lock picks or a bump key to do a "wellfare check."

If there is an "articulable emergency" like a screaming citizen or gunshots they will knock the door down using the ram or just boot it if it isn't too secure a doorway. A police ram is much more reliable than an officer with minimal training on how to use bump keys. Locksmiths spend quite a bit of time perfecting their skills so that they can perform on command and under pressure. Police officers cannot devote that kind of time as they have to keep current with other skills (shooting, law updates, defensive tactics, etc). Kicking in a door or using a "ram and pick" does need training and the skill deteriorates when not in use, but is still much easier to learn than bumping. So I am doubtful any department will devote the time necessary to train officers how to bump locks due to the facts above. on a side note, many detective units will have officers trained in lock picking and bump keys for "sneak and peak warrants."

[patrick_lpk]

Hey, firefighters love breaking stuff...
Don't ask them to pick a lock or to use a bump key.
If we're asked to break a door I have more volunteer to do it than needed.
Flat headed axe and halligan, sledge hammer, axe, whatever is messy and fun will do the job.

[adrenalynn]

Adze! What a fun tool! Need to get me one'a them.