Questions about gun safes

[VTX]

I've been looking at getting a gun safe.

Initially I was looking at something like the Cannon AE31. However, I wasn't satisfied in just taking the manufacturer's word for it about how secure that safe was. So, I posted a question about this safe on another forum and I came across a couple of guys who sell safes for a living. They explained to me how this wasn't a true safe, but an RSC. I never even knew what an RSC was until they explained to me that RSC meant Residential Security Container. They told me that basically any RSC can easily be broken into and wasn't worth looking at.

Since then I have been trying to do more research, because I want to make sure whatever I get will offer the best protection that I can reasonably afford and that makes sense for the value of the items I will be putting inside. The conclusiong I have come to is that the typical big box store RSC's will not suffice.

In my research I came across this forum. First of all, let me say that I am very impressed with this site. There is a lot of good information here and I know that I will learn a lot and enjoy participating in the discussions.

The first thing I did was read through the rules and FAQ's, then I did a search on "gun safes" and I did find a few threads on the topic, but I didn't really find anything that completely answered my questions. It's very possible that my search-foo is weak .

Anyway, what I would like to know is if anyone here has any good suggestions for a gun safe (or RSC). These two safe dealers that I mentioned earlier led me to believe that anything with an RSC rating is basically not worth looking at, as they can easily be broken into. They think I need to be looking at a real safe with at least a TL-15 rating. However, those type of safes are very expensive...over $2000. That is probably a bit out of my price range.

I was looking at the Amsec BF series. This is in my price range and I have found a dealer that sells the one I would want for under $2000. It is rated as an RSC, however it certainly seems like it is built much better than the more typical RSC's I see in gun stores (Cannon, Liberty, Sentry, Stack-On Elite Series, Browning, Winchester, etc., etc.).

The Amsec BF series also seems like it would have true fire protection. Many of the typical RSC's only have gypsum board in the walls. According to the safe dealers I talked to this was merely flame retardant, but wouldn't actually keep the safe from heating up. They also said that the typical 1200F for 30-45 min ratings, seen on many RSC's, were pretty much bogus because they weren't UL ratings. Basically anything inside in a house fire is toast...literally.

If gun safes is something that has been discussed at length on this board, or if it seems like I am being a "johnny come lately" I apologize for creating yet another thread. In that case I'd appreciate it if someone could give me some links to look at, as I didn't find much in my search (please refer to my weak search-foo above )

If not, I'd appreciate any advice and expertise that anyone would like to share with me about gun safes. I am particularly looking for other opinions on the RSC vs. "true safe" argument that the safe dealers told me about, which RSC or safe you think would be a good buy, and what things I should look for or avoid.

Right now I'm thinking as far as RSC's go, the Amsec BF series looks like it might be a good bet. I have no idea what "true safes" are good as gun safes, but would certainly like to know.

Thank you!

[hzatorsk]

Safes are rated by the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) their heat/fire resistance and to their 'attack resistance' by physical attack and expert manipulation.

As for 'expert' advise from a safe dealer... lemme guess... HIS brand is the one you should have? Right?

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/cms.php/page/9 (random googling)

Higher ratings mean better materials and that cost more money. Figure out what your are protecting and what you are protecting it from... and buy according to the ratings.

Generally, also consider a container can be weakened or strengthened by the type of lock it has with regards to burglary resistance. Here... a separate rating for the lock itself is in order.

Good advice: You are going to put more in the safe than you initially think. After all... if you have a gun safe in your home... why not put your coin collection, your passport, etc... in it? Do an inventory before you buy and allow for a little growth.

cheers

[VTX]

Safes are rated by the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) their heat/fire resistance and to their 'attack resistance' by physical attack and expert manipulation.

As for 'expert' advise from a safe dealer... lemme guess... HIS brand is the one you should have? Right?

Well, the one did give me recommendations of safes he carried. The other just gave me information and didn't try to sell me anything. They both explained the UL ratings as well.

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/cms.php/page/9 (random googling)

Higher ratings mean better materials and that cost more money. Figure out what your are protecting and what you are protecting it from... and buy according to the ratings.

Generally, also consider a container can be weakened or strengthened by the type of lock it has with regards to burglary resistance. Here... a separate rating for the lock itself is in order.

That is a good point. I found one thread in my search about lock ratings and it was something that I didn't really consider too much until then. Neither of those safe dealers mentioned anything about the lock either. They seemed most concerned with the strength of the box because they seemed to think that the majority of attacks would be brute force.

I tend to agree with them a little bit too. I'm not some kind of high profile person with anything worth millions of dollars that would attract the "professional" theif who would have the knowledge to "crack" the safe through the lock. Although it's certainly possible, I just don't think very likely. I imagine that most likely anyone breaking into my home would try and break into it with brute force if they tried at all.

That being said, I don't want a cheap and easily crackable lock either, but I'm not looking for anything like th XO-9 (found that one in my search )

Good advice: You are going to put more in the safe than you initially think. After all... if you have a gun safe in your home... why not put your coin collection, your passport, etc... in it? Do an inventory before you buy and allow for a little growth.

cheers

Thanks for the tip. That is good advice and I've been trying to catalog all the things I'd like to put in there so I can have an accurate idea of what size I need, with room for growth as well.

Researching this has definitely been an eye-opener. Over the weekend I was looking at a Stack-On Elite series "safe" (not the cheap cabinet types they make. This one looked like a typical gun safe). At first glance it looked like it would be pretty secure. It had active bolts on three sides and passive bolts on the hinge side. The door was very thick too. However, when I pushed in on the top of the safe the metal visibly flexed! I'm talking metal file cabinet flex here!

What use is a nice secure door if you can punch through the sides or top easily with a hammer? I think this is what I want to be sure of, that whatever safe I get doesn't have some kind of trick that can be used against it by a common theif to defeat it.

So, what do people think of the Amsec BF series?

Thanks for the reply!

[Chrispy]

I'm extremely disappointed that Australia doesn't have the same UL ratings that the US, etc. does. In Australia, safes are rated on insurable rating. Meaning that an insurance company will insure up to $5,000 or $10,000 or $500,000. There's no rating based on how long a safe will stand up to certain attacks and for how long, which is something I think Australia needs to remedy.

[hzatorsk]

I tend to agree with them a little bit too. I'm not some kind of high profile person with anything worth millions of dollars that would attract the "professional" theif who would have the knowledge to "crack" the safe through the lock.

or... perhaps... attract an unprofessional thug that may point a gun to your head and mutter something like... "Open it!"

...just some thoughts...

Personally... I find the concept of 'locking up your self-defense' a bit disturbing.

If you have a collection of firearms... yeah... Certainly, get a gun safe. If however, you have your home defense weapon in a safe, it'll do you no good should you need it quickly. ...and children can complicate the equation even more.

In my case... I now use a bedside 'quick-access' gun safe to solve that problem. It's a Simplex combo lock (no key fumbling) with a tamper detect feature so JR can be appropriate scolded for touching "daddy's box".

I can't wait to use it in the middle of the night!

[VTX]

I tend to agree with them a little bit too. I'm not some kind of high profile person with anything worth millions of dollars that would attract the "professional" theif who would have the knowledge to "crack" the safe through the lock.

or... perhaps... attract an unprofessional thug that may point a gun to your head and mutter something like... "Open it!"

...just some thoughts...

Personally... I find the concept of 'locking up your self-defense' a bit disturbing.

If you have a collection of firearms... yeah... Certainly, get a gun safe. If however, you have your home defense weapon in a safe, it'll do you no good should you need it quickly. ...and children can complicate the equation even more.

In my case... I now use a bedside 'quick-access' gun safe to solve that problem. It's a Simplex combo lock (no key fumbling) with a tamper detect feature so JR can be appropriate scolded for touching "daddy's box".

I can't wait to use it in the middle of the night!

Who said anything about locking up my home defense guns? I have lots of guns, not all of which are used for home defense. My HD gun is always on my person or within arms reach, even at night when I'm asleep. I don't have any kids either.

This safe is really for my other guns when I am out of the house. I collect C&R stuff and also have some NFA stuff, which I don't want anyone else getting their hands on when I am not at the house.

[hzatorsk]

...Who said anything about locking up my home defense guns? I have lots of guns, not all of which are used for home defense.....

Figured as much... It was just an idea in case you hadn't thought of it. (or really for anyone else reading the thread).

Cheers

[Raccoon]

From what I've read, I personally don't believe a high security safe is quite necessary for this application. Unless you are absolutely prepared to pay 5x more on a safe than the value of the guns inside, it's just not worth it.

Instead, I recommend looking for the most economic but highest rated fire box. Fire boxes are strong in themselves, though may be destroyed with a sledge hammer over time. I wouldn't worry much about the strength of the lock from picking, because really, who's going to try picking it?

If you're really worried about protecting the contents of your home from a theif, then invest in a $500 home security system instead, and get a cheap and insecure fire box that will keep friends and family out and fire out.

[VTX]

...Who said anything about locking up my home defense guns? I have lots of guns, not all of which are used for home defense.....

Figured as much... It was just an idea in case you hadn't thought of it. (or really for anyone else reading the thread).

Cheers

Ok, no problem. I thought you were implying that I was locking my HD gun up.

You're right. It is a good point to make for others who might be locking up their HD weapons.

[VTX]

From what I've read, I personally don't believe a high security safe is quite necessary for this application. Unless you are absolutely prepared to pay 5x more on a safe than the value of the guns inside, it's just not worth it.

Instead, I recommend looking for the most economic but highest rated fire box. Fire boxes are strong in themselves, though may be destroyed with a sledge hammer over time. I wouldn't worry much about the strength of the lock from picking, because really, who's going to try picking it?

If you're really worried about protecting the contents of your home from a theif, then invest in a $500 home security system instead, and get a cheap and insecure fire box that will keep friends and family out and fire out.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I certainly don't want thugs getting a hold of any of my NFA weapons!

Not to mention that they aren't cheap by any means. I have over $2k into just one of my rifles alone.

[Raccoon]

Then secure your entire home against thugs, and hide a fire safe in your basement. You already admitted that you are not high profile. Random thugs don't even know you own any guns. Those that do will find it very difficult breaking into a RPC fire box while the alarm is going off and the pitbull is gnawing at his leg.

[foo]

or... perhaps... attract an unprofessional thug that may point a gun to your head and mutter something like... "Open it!"

Precisely the reason for the S&G 6738 series of mechanical safe locks!

I now use a bedside 'quick-access' gun safe to solve that problem. It's a Simplex combo lock (no key fumbling) with a tamper detect feature

Could you elaborate on the tamper detect feature? Maybe a model number or link?

Thanks!

/foo

[hzatorsk]

I only know what I've read... but the AMSEC appears from their web site to be an excellent choice. It appears you've done more homework than most... especially since your original post mentions 5 or 6 different brands that you've run across.

There is also one other consideration... the lock.... You said you didn't need an X-09 (and I agree), but, you are still looking at a handful of options.

I can't tell from the picture... but it reads like the container comes standard with a Group II mechanical lock and the options to upgrade to either LaGard or S&G electronic combo locks. (all are decent choices).

You can visit the sglocks.com site for a review of the 6120 locks (which I am familar with) and dload the PDFs of the owners manuals for them, etc... (You may opt for a lock with different auditing capabilities for example)

FWIW: ...LP101 doesn't discuss combo bypass in the open forums... but.. I can offer that if you choose a keypad style lock that you should keep the keypad very clean of fingerprints and be cautious of keypad wear over time for specific digits of your combination.

cheers

[VTX]

Then secure your entire home against thugs, and hide a fire safe in your basement. You already admitted that you are not high profile. Random thugs don't even know you own any guns. Those that do will find it very difficult breaking into a RPC fire box while the alarm is going off and the pitbull is gnawing at his leg.

The problem is I don't know if they make fireboxes large enough to hold a long gun, let alone a bunch of long guns. If they do, how expensive are they? Do you have any links for any? I'm not too familiar with the different types of fireboxes available, other than the typical ones sold at places like Walmart.

It is certainly an idea worth considering, but I wonder if by the time I found a good quality firebox large enough to hold all my long guns if I wouldn't already be approaching the price of a real gun safe that has fireproofing in it already, such as the Amsec BF series I mentioned earlier.

If anyone has any info on fireboxes that might do the job I'd appreciate any info/links you could give me.

Also, if anyone has used or has an expert opinion on the Amsec BF series I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on that particular safe as well.

Thanks!

[VTX]

I only know what I've read... but the AMSEC appears from their web site to be an excellent choice. It appears you've done more homework than most... especially since your original post mentions 5 or 6 different brands that you've run across.

There is also one other consideration... the lock.... You said you didn't need an X-09 (and I agree), but, you are still looking at a handful of options.

I can't tell from the picture... but it reads like the container comes standard with a Group II mechanical lock and the options to upgrade to either LaGard or S&G electronic combo locks. (all are decent choices).

You can visit the sglocks.com site for a review of the 6120 locks (which I am familar with) and dload the PDFs of the owners manuals for them, etc... (You may opt for a lock with different auditing capabilities for example)

FWIW: ...LP101 doesn't discuss combo bypass in the open forums... but.. I can offer that if you choose a keypad style lock that you should keep the keypad very clean of fingerprints and be cautious of keypad wear over time for specific digits of your combination.

cheers

I appreciate your input on the Amsec safe.

That is also very good advice about the keypad fingerprints and wear. At this time I am leaning towards a mechanical lock, because it seems that they would be more reliable, however I'm certainly not an expert in this area.

How good is the group 2 lock on the Amsec BF? Do you think the protection it provides is an adaquate match to the strength of the box?

Is there a general consensus among the members here at LP101 on which type of lock is better (mechanical dial vs. electronic keypad)?

Thank you!