Problems with my first real lock.

[Crazy]

Hi Everyone.

I have spent hours trying to pick a cylinder rim lock/pin tumbler lock or whatever it is that they are called without an OUNCE of success.

As you can see, I am based in the UK. The lock in question has WREN BIRD written on its face. Here are the problems I am having:

I am able to feel all five pins and push them up with a hook pick without TOO much of a problem, however, after spending hours on it, I haven't managed to get a SINGLE pin to set yet! I have no idea as to whether this lock is easy or hard to pick, but even if it had mushroom/serrated pins, false notches, etc, then I should still at least be able to false set a pin, which hasn't happened either!

Before I go any further, I must say that even though I have used a Slim Line (SouthOrd) pick and tension wrench, which is supposed to work well with UK locks, the tension wrenches are either too small and simply turn in the keyway without turning the plug or are so big that they hinder the pick inside the lock...and this is with a variety of seven various sizes of wrench! The only way I have been able to manage it is to use the smallest size wrench and place it at the very bottom of the keyway so that the handle hangs straight down vertically and then push it to the right after which it soon manages to grip onto some part to enable torque. This method doesn't work for turning it to the left, for which a bigger wrench has to be placed with the handle horizontally this time, and which gets in the way of the pick inside the lock, so turning it left is pretty much useless.

Anyway, the method I have been using is exactly as described in various instructions; apply GENTLE torque and try to find the pin that is most binding (hardest to push up) first, etc, etc, however, none of the pins are setting at all, not even one of them! I have also tried pushing each pin up from back to front (and front to back) whilst applying gentle torque, however, no luck. I have also tried varying the torgue to a little heavier and a little lighter, but still the same.

Is there something wrong with the lock???

Another thing which I have noticed in locks of this type is that the pick often has to be rotated slightly in order to get any contact with the pins as the shape that has been cut on at the entrance of the keyway, blocks the pick from reaching the pins dead on straight.

Any ideas???

Thanks very much.

[mh]

"Wren Bird" sounds chinese to me...
A picture of the lock might help.

the tension wrenches are either too small and simply turn in the keyway without turning the plug or are so big that they hinder the pick inside the lock

There are tension tools on the market (and can be of course handmade, too) that have two tips to be inserted at the top & at the bottom of the keyway. Such tool might help.

Another thing which I have noticed in locks of this type is that the pick often has to be rotated slightly in order to get any contact with the pins as the shape that has been cut on at the entrance of the keyway, blocks the pick from reaching the pins dead on straight.

I also noted that European pin tumbler locks tend to have more slim and paracentric keyways than those I saw in the U.S.
And that means of course that the pick needs to be slimmer, too, otherwise you can't move it properly inside the keyway.

I still don't understand why not ALL lock manufacturers use these slim and paracentric keyways to make locks more secure, esp. in the U.S.

Cheers,
mh

[zeke79]

I still don't understand why not ALL lock manufacturers use these slim and paracentric keyways to make locks more secure, esp. in the U.S.

Cheers,
mh

I have also wondered why US lock manufacturers use such unobstructed keyways. Seems to me that broaching a more paracentric keyway would be a cheap way to add security to a lock.[/quote]

[Crazy]

Thanks.

It's just a standard lock. I'm surprised that none of the tensions wrenches fit properly. I do have the two tipped wrench as well; didn't think of using it as I thought it was for car locks. Will try that out, thanks.

I'll try to take a picture of it if I can but in the meantime, I can tell you that it looks no different to a usual rim cylinder like Yale, etc.

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong, or could try differently?

[geonap]

Thanks.

It's just a standard lock. I'm surprised that none of the tensions wrenches fit properly. I do have the two tipped wrench as well; didn't think of using it as I thought it was for car locks. Will try that out, thanks.

I'll try to take a picture of it if I can but in the meantime, I can tell you that it looks no different to a usual rim cylinder like Yale, etc.

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong, or could try differently?

Crazy... I am definitely still VERY new at this, but I can tell you one of my biggest initial downfalls was putting TOO MUCH tension on the lock. If you've picked for a while with no success, release the tension (hopefully allowing everything to fall back into place) and start again.

As other folks much wiser than myself have said, trying to pick a 5 pin lock is much like learning how to swim wearing flippers. I say that in the kindest and trust me... the most understanding fashion. You may want to find a lock you can remove some pins from (learn how to disassmeble it), that way you learn to pick one pin, then two pins, etc.... slowly increasing the difficulty.

Again, just my humble opinion... but it seemed like pretty good advice when I got it. Best of luck to you! Let me know when you get your first pick.

[jordyh]

When i screw up my picking, i walk the dog, and i'll owh the lock when i get back.
Sometimes, one just needs a bit of rest in between. Clear the mind.
Not enough tension, too much tension, i'd get al tense because of that.

My two cents.


Yours,

Jordy

[horsefeathers]

A Wren Bird eh? Just about as tough as it gets....not!

Is it mounted in a door and is in use? Or is it loose so you can hold it in your hand?

If mounted in a door and is in use then I suggest you avoid picking any lock that you rely on in case you bugger it up. Buy a cheap cylinder from Wilkes, B+Q, Screwfix or car boot sale etc to practise with.

If it is loose and you can hold it in your hand, then do a seach on this forum to find the sticky on disassembling a cylinder and do so. Remove the three sets of pins and springs that are at the back of the lock (if it has six pins I will eat my own ears!) leaving two stacks (pins and springs) right at the front. The lock now only has two pins to concentrate on once reassembled. Practise with getting the tension right as you lift the pins to the shearline. Start with the front one and lift while applying gentle tension until the plug moves slightly (you wont miss it when it happens). Slowly lift the second and when it hits the shearline it will turn. Having diassembled it at the start you will know whether the top pins are mushrooms/spools or not. I suggest you make the first top pin a normal one and the second a spool, just so you can practise the techniques for recognising and overcoming them.

Once happy then disassemble and add a third stack and repeat. Keep going until you can do all five.

But dont be shy - search the board for all the answers to these questions.

regards

wayne

[Chucklz]

Your tension technique sounds a bit off. I'm not sure how exactly, but your description just doesnt "feel" right to me. Its okay for the tension tool to block the keyway a bit, but not so much that you cannot use your pick. You might also try tension at the top of the keyway.

[CapnCurry]

Do you have a key for this lock? I ask because it might just turn really hard, and using the key is the easiest way to double-check. There was one lock I worked on that turned *really* hard... I applied torque with the wrench, but couldn't get one of the pins to stick, false set or otherwise. Once I figured out how hard it was to turn, I torqued the *stuffing* out of it, then it opened like a champ.

Another thought: if you can only torque to the right, and nothing happens, this might be a lock that only turns left. On some locks that only turn one direction, you can't get pins to set at all in the other - there's no ledge for the pins to sit on.

A two-tipped tension wrench would solve either problem - lets you torque in either direction comfortably, and lets you get a better grip if for some reason you have to go all Hercules on it.

[Crazy]

I have tried the two tipped approach, which manages to keep the keyway clear but also keeps springing out and attacking me!

Thanks for the suggestion of disassembling. I may just have to resort to that in the end.

I've rested and come back to the lock several times, but the results have been the same.

Don't worry, it's a loose lock and not mounted yet. I simply wedge it between a heavy pile of books so am able to pick it as if it were mounted. Of course, I make sure that the back is not hindered.

How much does the plug move when a pin is picked?

I realise that my tension technique is a bit off, but I have little choice. If I insert a wrench in the normal way, it just gets in the way of the pick.

I don't have a key for this lock. It used to be my bedroom door lock, but I lost the key and had to replace the lock, so it's perfect as a practise lock now. From what I can remember, I don't think this lock was hard to turn. CC, the lock which you say was really hard, was it attached to the rest of the lock (knob, etc) at the time or was it just the cylinder on its own? I've already tried left torque but that hasn't worked either.

There are a few things which I have thought of which may be a factor, but as I am completely new, I don't have a clue if any of them is a legitimate excuse.

The pins are extremely squeaky and sometimes require quite some force to push up, which I read elsewhere should not be the case. Maybe they're rusty?

Since there is very little room to manoeuver the pick, when I am lifting a pin, maybe some other part of the pick is lifting another pin at the same time? To avoid this, I have tried pivoting the pick instead of lifting the entire pick, but again, the wrench makes this difficult. (I have used four different hook picks.)

Thanks for the much helpful advice!

[CapnCurry]

Crazy Wrote:

How much does the plug move when a pin is picked?

Depends on the tolerances of the lock. Most, you'll feel just a little bit of a click, and the plug will just shift very slightly. On other, cheaper locks, you can tell how many pins are set by how much the plug has rotated.

I realise that my tension technique is a bit off, but I have little choice. If I insert a wrench in the normal way, it just gets in the way of the pick.

If it's giving you that much trouble, you might want to set this one aside for a little bit and try a padlock with a more forgiving keyway. Tension is one of the hardest first points to master, and anything to complicate that learning curve is one headache you probably don't want. And, if the pins are squeaking at you, then it might not be the friendliest lock around in the first place -- I've always had better luck with big, off-the-shelf new locks for practice.

CC, the lock which you say was really hard, was it attached to the rest of the lock (knob, etc) at the time or was it just the cylinder on its own?

Just the cylinder and plug. It was held together with a cotter pin instead of a spring clip, and I think the pin was causing some serious friction.

Best of luck to you - always exciting to finally wrestle that first, stubborn lock open.

[Crazy]

CC, thanks for the advice.

I'll have to buy some easy ones like you've suggested.

I didn't go out and buy this lock. I just started with whatever I had lying around at home, which includes another cylinder (whose pins are even more hidden behind an obstruction than this one!) and two lever locks, which I will need to make picks for (I assume it'll just two pieces of wire???).

What about a practise cutaway lock? Any cheap ones in the UK?

[quacking_duck]

If it's a Wren Bird mate, it has no security pins and it should pop in a very short time (1 or 2 mins for a novice), either by raking or by picking the individual pins with a half diamond or a hook. When you say an obstruction ie the keyway wards (shape of the sides of the key), do you mean you cannot physically get your picks in to lift the pins? If so, you're either doing something totally wrong or you've bought the wrong pick set.

You also may need to hold it in a vice (or something stronger than books), as I can't see how the books are going to hold the cylinder straight and in place for picking if your tension is correct.

When you say two lever locks, do you mean locks that have two levers in or 2*lever locks? It is true that some UK lever locks can be opened by use of 2 or even 1 wire, but others will be much more difficult and require use of specialist wires / specialist tools. Which UK lever locks do you possess in your collection?

Re: cutaway locks, you'll find plenty of ideas in threads on this site as to how to go about making one from your practice locks.

[Crazy]

Hi QD.

Well I've been at it for two days, never mind two minutes! The ward obstruction is located just before the very first pin, which I think is normal for rim cylinder type locks. I can get to the pins; it's just that it makes it a little awkward with having to go in at an angle instead of head on due to the wrench taking up room.

The pick set I have is from South Ord. It's a Slim Line one which is supposed to be suitable for UK locks. Do you think I'd have more luck with a paperclip?

Even though I have to use awkward methods, I am able to lift the pins and turn the wrench at the same time, so there is no reason why I shouldn't have gotten at least one pin to set. I haven't had a chance to mount the lock yet, but it seems to be able to wedge between the pile quite OK, i.e. perfectly straight. I'll see if it can fit in my mini vice!

Sorry for the confusion; I meant two locks and not two levers. I haven't checked what type they are, but I think one's a sash lock and the other's a deadlock, both for external doors.

Can the pins in the lock be picked from back to front or is it necessary that the most binding one be picked first, etc?

[quacking_duck]

Hi Crazy,

The pin that is binding first should always be picked first, allowing the plug to move slightly due to the tolerance of the lock until the next pin binds etc.
There is no necessary order ie front, back as to which pin will set first.

If you rake the pins up and down at random while feathering tension, the pins should eventually set and the lock open, but you won't get the same 'feel' as if you're picking them up individually. When I said about the books possibly not holding the lock in place, I thought that perhaps the whole lockface may have been moving a mm or two when you applied tension.

I've never used the Southord slim line set myself, so don't know from personal experience what it's like for UK locks, but if designed for UK / European keyways, they should be OK and no, don't go back to using a paper clip. I generally use Majestic half diamonds and hooks for hand picking cylinders. As for tension bars, I usually make my own out of an old piece of wiper blade to fit the keyway.

Make sure you put your tension bar as far away as possible from the pick blade, but still allowing the plug to turn. Let the tension bar do the 'work'. Don't be too heavy on the tension, but more importantly, just lift the binding pin with minimal effort from the pick until it sets and repeat the process. Although Wren Birds as a general should be a straightforward pick, as Captain Curry has said before, if the pins are squeaking, the particular lock may not be the most pick-friendly to start with due to them not moving as freely as they should. However, I'd try another Bird cyl first before a padlock, as sprung padlocks generally require heavier tension and even some cheap ones may have security pins. Rims are also easily re-keyable when you've mastered picking them once.

As for UK lever locks, if they have been used on exterior doors, they may likely be 5 lever or BS3621 locks. If this is the case, then this would not be a good place to start with the picking of lever locks. I would recommend starting on Union / Yale / Legge 2 lever locks, then Union and other brands 3 lever locks, which can be picked relatively easily with home-made tools. Progress then to non-curtained 5 lever locks, then curtained 5 lever, then bs 5 lever.

Good luck,

QD