impressioning troubles....please help!

[pinsetter]

I've studied through the posts on impressioning, but I'm having a small problem I haven't seen a clear answer on.

I'm trying to impression a Master 4 pin padlock. (It was given to me with no key.)

OK, so here's what I'm doing:

I roughed the key blank with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper (yes illusion, the black stuff). It leaves a good matte finish, better than a file in my opinion.
I have the key clamped in 5 in. vice grips, I stick it in the lock making sure to place it all the way to the shoulder and twist it till it's almost ready to bend the key blank, then I wiggle the key up and down for a few seconds. Since the cylinder in Master only turns CW I only go in that direction. I take the fresh blank out and there are 4 nice marks on it in the form of tiny shiny spots. It appears that the spacing has a bit more space between pins 2 and 3 than between the others. I mark the spacing on the side of the blank, then file just a bit off each of the places since all 4 pins marked the blank. Then I re-finish the cuts with the sandpaper and go at it again. I'm filing with a round file, so the cuts are tapered now, like a bowl. After the cuts get a couple of filings deep (which isn't very deep) I fail to see marks in the center of the cuts on any of the pins. I have marked the spacing, so I know I'm filing in the right places. OK, so you know what isn't happening at this point - no marks in the right places on the blank.
Here's what IS happening: The pins, while sliding over the edges of the "bowl" shape are marking the blank loudly where they cross the high points making it difficult to discern any "binding" marks. It seems that I can see other markings, but they're not where I expect them to be. Picture the rounded filing cut being the bottom of a clock dial where you're able to see 5, 6, and 7 o'clock. The marks are appearing on both sides of the bowl at about 5:30 and 6:30 positions, not in the center of the filing.
I'm almost feeling like maybe I should "square" the bottom of the cuts with the edge of a flat file so the bottom of the cut is not rounded.
So what could I be doing wrong if the pins don't seem to be marking exactly where I think they should be? Could I be rocking the blank too hard, too far, or what?
Anyone that's proficient at impressioning please help!!!
Thanks in advance!

[Varjeal]

#1. Your first mistake was in filing in ALL positions. ONLY file in ONE at a time. Perhaps 2 or three forward strokes only.

#2. Lighten your turning pressure a bit.

#3. Don't "refinish" the cuts...your file should be smooth enough to do the job.

#4. If you are using a round file, use a tapered one that comes to a point and only use the first 2 or 3 inches of it.

Umm...try that for a start and see how it goes.

[Lessavit]

When performing this fantastic art i file to points. the key shape will be tapered but the contact with the pin will be at a point not rounded. this will help the pins scratch the surface. I also use a lighter to put soot on the key so i can see the markings better.

[keysman]

1. Put the lock in a vise or make it VERY steady
2. Use some WD40 or other penetrating lube to loosen everything up.
3. Flush and dry the lock with brake cleaner, electronic cleaner or any solvent that dries . be sure to shake all the oil and solvent out of the top chambers.
4.Use a file to put a knife edge on the blank.. you don’t want the edge to be too shinny, you want it dull so the pin marks will show up.


Find a bright light , you will want to impression in an area that has bright AND dim light ( I like a halogen desk lamp)


Your file is important.. you need a Swiss cut #2 or 4 file pippin or rattail
The files that come in packs of 4 or 5 are way to coarse for beginning impressioning work.

Shameless Plug : contact Absinthe for good files

Unless your eyesight is very good you will do better with a magnifier visor or at least a magnifying glass of some sort.



On a master padlock ( common ones any way) the difference in depth of cuts is .016 inches. That is not very much… about the thickness of a matchbook cover.


I have found using small vise grips works better for me .. clamp the key so it is TIGHT, put the key in the lock and turn until it stops, then rock the key while putting some turning pressure on the key.
You don’t need a lot of force to get marks , if you are breaking keys you are turning too hard .. Easy to do with larger vice grips.
Use the bright light / shadow to locate the marks .. only file the marks that you can see.

File the marks down 1 cut … repeat… if there is no mark or you are in doubt , don’t file . Magnifier helps a lot here

[pinsetter]

Varjeal,
The file I'm using is a needle file and goes to a very fine point up to about 1/4". The problem is that it's not a 2 or 4 cut, it's a 0 swiss which is too coarse. That is why I'm finishing the cuts with 1000 grit. The sandpaper actually does leave a good matte finish and marks are easy to see, but they just aren't appearing where I think they should be, or are getting obscured by the normal sliding of the pins on the blank. I'm going to try one position at a time later tonight and see what happens. I've been filing every position I see marks each time I withdraw the key.

keysman,
I have been holding the lock in my hand while trying to do this. I will put it in my bench vise tonight when I try again. I'll also clean the lock (as I'm very certain it is quite dirty inside) and using ether (starting fluid) to flush it should be good because it evaporates rapidly and dries completely.

So, about the position of the marks:
Should they always be in the very bottom of the filing cut or will the rocking motion actually cause them to mark up on the sides of the cut a little? I somehow get the feeling I may be rocking the blank a little too "violently". I have never broken a blank yet, but I have noticed some stress right at the shoulder from torquing on the blank with the vice grips. I also have the vice grips set about 1/4 inch behind the shoulder, so it is close to the keyway opening. When rocking the blank should it be an up and down motion that moves the key up and down until it stops in the keyway, or should it be just a twitchy up and down movement with little real travel?

[keysman]

So, about the position of the marks:
Should they always be in the very bottom of the filing cut or will the rocking motion actually cause them to mark up on the sides of the cut a little? I somehow get the feeling I may be rocking the blank a little too "violently". ?

The marks can be anywhere in the 'space" . The older more worn the lock is ,the more "off " the marks can be as the cylinder ovals out.
Yes you don't need a lot of force.

I have never broken a blank yet, but I have noticed some stress right at the shoulder from torquing on the blank with the vice grips. I also have the vice grips set about 1/4 inch behind the shoulder, so it is close to the keyway opening. When rocking the blank should it be an up and down motion that moves the key up and down until it stops in the keyway, or should it be just a twitchy up and down movement with little real travel?

Put the key in the lock , grip the key as close to the lock as you can.
turn Side to side ( like you are turning the key) .

On a master pin tumbler you should have great marks ( big , clear), they are one of the easier pin tumblers to impression.

[pinsetter]

If the marks can appear in the space then I'm probably actually seeing them. I can see a couple of more defined markings, but since they were not directly in the center of the filing cut (on the same line that I marked on the side of the blank) I assumed they were not the marks I was looking for. It also seemed odd that there seem to be 2 distinct markings in each cut, that's why I think I'm using too much movement and force.

Thanks for the help! I'll try these things later and let you know if I get the key impressioned or not.

[Jryanruch]

I find it easier to impression master padlocks with the lock in the vise and the blank in a good pair of vise-grips (locking pliers). Often a plain brass blank will be softer and more flexible for you (providing better marks and better resistance to cracking). Our super-cheap blanks are brutal for impressioning. They're brittle and don't mark easily enough for quick work.

Lubricating the lock before impressioning is a 'no-no' in my humble, and learning opinion. I would move on for another 15 years if you've put teflon in it.

Cheers.

[keysman]

Jryanruch is correct about NOT lubing the lock before impressioning , my suggestion was to lossen everything up then remove any lube with brake cleaner.

You want the lock to be VERY dry

[maxxed]

The second mark in the cut can be the result of the angles of your cuts being too steep and the pin is leaving a mark when the key is being inserted or removed.

[mh]

The marks are appearing on both sides of the bowl at about 5:30 and 6:30 positions, not in the center of the filing.

Is your "bowl" wide enough so that the pin touches the bottom of the "bowl" and doesn't get stuck at the sides?

[taylorgdl]

Here is a key I did the other day, the lower one (not in the grip) was the copy I made in a machine, in case the original broke during use.


As my file is oval shaped, and the cuts became deeper, I was concerned that the key may jam as the pins would not be able to "escape" from my cuts on removing the key.

So I just filed more away from the peaks so the key looked more key like, and not like a small mouse with strong teeth had taken bites out of it. Most evident between pins 4 and 5 where there is a small valley.

You still following this ?

Don't get dis-heartened, keep trying, thats the first 5 pin key I've managed, and it was only a bird cylinder.

G.

[CVScam]

I have tried it 5-8 times and made GOOD keys about 2-3 times. I don't know if this helps but the last master padlock I did the cylinder was a bit lose and it was a pain to impression. In fact I went too deep on one of the cuts my key doesn't work the best. I try to get done too fast and over file the blanks. One trick I have used before is old master padlocks keys with different cuts, I see which pins bind on which copys sometimes that gives me an idea which pins are high or low.

[Raccoon]

Why is a round file better than a square file? Better chance of meeting tolerance?

[maxxed]

Why is a round file better than a square file? Better chance of meeting tolerance?

Round or even pippin files shape the sides of the cut much better than trying to shape the cuts with a square file.