Quick clarification questions.

[Nose_Picker]

Ok, Ive been reading almost everything on here, and there are a few things that I want to know more about, but seems to be common knowledge, and I cant find info.

Pins Vs. Wafers? I recently took a lock apart, and there were metal squares with lollowed out centers where the key would go. Are these wafers?

If so, what does a pin look like, and is there a big difference in how you would pick the 2? And also, is there a way to easily identify the 2?

Plug Spinners? I read something about picking backwards, and then using the spinner? Im not too sure, it went right over my head... What do they do, exactly, and is it worth an investment?

I have a general idea of what a 'keycode' is, somone mentioned it in my introductory post. im just wondering what the numbers mean. Is it how far a pin needs to be pressed to hit the shear line?

I will more than likley have more questions, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

[Varjeal]

Good questions.

1. The metal "squares" are indeed called wafers.

2. A pin is generally described as being cylindrical in shape with a point or rounded tip.

3. A big difference in picking? Not really. Standard wafer locks are generally easier than their pin tumbler counterparts.

4. Yes, just peek into the lock.

5. A plug spinner uses a coil spring(s) to quickly turn the plug in the opposite direction so fast that the top pins do not have time to drop into the plug before it crosses the shearline. In some cases (especially with locks that have tighter plug to shell tolerances) it is easier to pick the lock in the wrong direction, then insert the plug spinner and activate it so that it spins the plug in the opposite direction and past the shearline so you don't have to pick it again.

Is it worth the investment? That depends on you.

6. Regarding keycodes. Keycodes are encrypted (generally) formulas that allow locksmiths to derive the actual bitting of the lock with the use of proper software and without using a key or other reading/impressioning methods.

ie. Let's say I remove an ignition from a 94+GM car. It has the code "A205" stamped on the side of it. I can then go to my software, type in the code, and it comes out with the actually depths of the wafers and the bitting of the lock. In this case "1124424232" . My software also tells me that the keyblank used is a P1102. I can now take that code and keyblank, and go to my code machine and cut a working key for the lock without disassembling the lock itself.

Hope that makes sense.

[Nose_Picker]

Thanks, that clears alot up.

About the keycode, I meant that numbered sequence you gave me. 1124424232. Those numbers are the depths the pins must be at to turn, right?

If so, what numbers are pins pressed deeply, and what numbers are pins barley moved?

And another question, Do you prefer to pick from back to front, or front to back? or both?

The locks Ive picked, I use a snake rake on, and can go both ways fairly proficently.

Thanks again

[Varjeal]

Ahhh..k...a #1 would be a very shallow cut on the key, so the wafer in the lock would have to be moved up relatively high as opposed to a #4 which is a deep cut on the key, and the wafer lifted very little.

The proper order for picking is whichever tumbler binds the most, but the tendency (not the rule) is for the more rearward ones to be first.

[Nose_Picker]

ok, cool.

Thank you for clearing all this up. I was getting so confused, lol. I really enjoy picking, and dont want to give up cause of some little thing that I dont get.

[Nose_Picker]

Ok, I was thinking about something, and I just want to know if somone can give me their thoughts on it.

I used to think that if you could fill a lock with some sort of expanding material, that didnt expand too quickly, and let it set, would it provide you with an impression of the proper pin settings?

I thought this a long time ago, and having never seen a lock crosssection, and having never picked, I thought that maybe the pins would move properly to their right settings.

Now, I know that there are springs, and all sorts of other things that would proove my thought to be usless, but then I thought about the springs, are there different tensions on the springs? like, on a well used lock, the springs may loose their 'bounce' and could this help make a key impression?

[Grudge]

I used to think that if you could fill a lock with some sort of expanding material, that didnt expand too quickly, and let it set, would it provide you with an impression of the proper pin settings?

I doubt this would work. The pins must be lifted to their correct various heights to turn the cylinder. The problem is the pressure put on by the foam is a constant and I image it would lift all of the pins equally. Even if it didn't because of spring wear, getting the right 'foam pressure' to match the springs would be very difficult.

Even if all of that did work out, expansive foam would fill all of the spaces around the pins and be nearly impossible to remove intact.

[Chucklz]

Springs do not exert a constant force. On the scale of locks, these springs are very close to ideal Hooke's law springs. The expansive foam may indeed push up against the pins, but why would it stop pushing when the pins have reached the shear line?

[marso]

Nose_Picker thanks for all the questions. Varjeal answered them all. I like pictures so go to the below url and you will see pictures of pin and wafer locks

http://dp.penix.org/locks/cl.html

[Mad Mick]

I very much doubt this would work also, but I can see the reasoning behind his idea..... With all the springs being made from the same gauge wire, and potentially being all of the same uncompressed length, you could assume they all have the same rate of compression. If you could find a way of applying the force to lift all of the pins at once, then hardening the object used to create the force, presumably you could duplicate the profile of the key as a start for impressioning, regardless of whether the pins were at, above, or below the shear line.

As Grudge stated, foam would not work for this as you'd probably never get it back out in one piece.

Maybe something else could be used though...

[marso]

Yeh, but i would try impressioning or foil impressioning before you try new methods. You might find you like these enough. I like the idea about the gauge wire

[Mad Mick]

I haven't tried impressioning yet, but would like to sometime.

I liked Nose_Picker's train of thought though, as my mind has often wandered along the same lines as his. It's always healthy to explore different methods, without which, impressioning and foil impressioning wouldn't exist. (although I don't know what foil impressioning is - I can guess you'd use something like aluminium foil wrapped over the blank)

Another thing I picked up from re-reading the post was:
If you picked the lock and left it rotated, then managed to put some substance in which would expand and set with the pins pushed against the housing, you'd have the exact key profile, providing you could remove it. From there you could gauge the cuts and duplicate a key.

This is all well and good, unless you come to the realisation as I have just done, that impressioning is probably done to a lock which is considered very hard to pick in the first place. Also, if you can pick it, you can remove and dismantle it to measure the pins anyway, but if you could get a profile without dismantling or impressioning, why bother?

My head hurts now.......

[Nose_Picker]

Wow...

I didnt think my childish thought would generate such a large response.

Ok, let me add some more thought to this.

I didnt nessicarily mean foam. You all seem to have jumped to that.

I just mean any kind of expanding substance.

How about this: a small baloon (the little annoying ones that dont blow up big at all) is placed into the lock then filled with water, slowly, untill it expands a bit. since the baloon is inside the lock, it will only expand vertically, pressing on the pins. If the springs get used often, some will weaken over time, correct? so the deeply pressed ones will press faster, and the lower pressed ones will press slowly.

Then you use liquid nitrogen (or let it sit overnight in canada, eh?) and then it will freeze. then when its frozen, you insert a small flat bar to lift all the pins, and slide your icy template out.

What do you think? Feasable, or ridiculous?

[Grudge]

Wow... I didnt think my childish thought would generate such a large response.

John Falle seems to do pretty well by coming up with similar childish thoughts Keep it up.

[Nose_Picker]

Any ideas on the Ice key?

I want to try that, but Im in the middle of nowhere right now, and I can't pick cause im at my parents place. I wanna try the ice key idea...

And also, is there some kind of trick to picking a deadbolt?

I have read all these picking tips, and then alot of them say dont try this on a deadbolt.

Why not?