Idea on Un-pickable lock...

by **mcm757207** » 31 Mar 2004 18:26

What do you think about this idea:

6 Pin cylinder lock.
First 5 pins are alternating High-Low-High-low etc. and have spool drivers
(The key only reaches 5 pins deep)
The 6th pin has a normal driver, a tall pin and a sliver of a master-key pin below the driver.
Take out the plug, find a drill bit the exact size as a pin, and drill a VERY small hole 1/4 inch away from the 6th hole.
The idea is that they key only reaches to the first 5 pins, so the normal person using the lock wouldn't have any problems. But when someone goes to pick it, and picks the 6th pin, the master pin will set on the shear line. When the plug starts to to turn, it will drop into the small hole that you drilled, and stop the plug from turning anymore.

It would be *possible* to pick if you started from the front and picked all the pins except the last one, but the chances are very small. I dunno about what to do once the lock is locked in place, but oh well

So what do you think...? It's kinda hard to explain, sorry if you didn't follow me.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 18:59

I think I follow, but there is nothing to stop the 6th pin/master key pin from dropping into the hole you've drilled, even under normal operation. When using the key, although the 6th pin is not touched, the driver pin is still under spring pressure. As the plug is turned, the driver/master pin will drop into the hole you've drilled, and lock the plug. The only way to release the plug is to use destructive means, i.e. a rotary pick (drill).

by **Chucklz** » 31 Mar 2004 19:06

Non obvious problem. On a cylinder drilled for six but pinned for five, the tip of the key often reaches far enough to interact with a pin in the 6th chamber.

Other issues

The bottom pin/master pin would of necessity be so that they would be "at the sheer line" all the time, for normal operation. When tension is applied, the sixth pin will probably give all the feedback of a set pin. If not, there is no guarantee that the picker will pick the lock so that the master pin enteres the bible.

Finally, even in normal operation,-- if i understand correctly what you wish to do-- the hole you drilled would trap the top pin, resulting in a lockout condition.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 19:08

After further thinking, it may work if the sliver of MK pin were of a smaller diameter than the key/driver pins, and the extra hole was big enough to let the MK pin drop in, but small enough to inhibit the driver to enter. This would lock the plug when returned to the neutral position, rendering the key useless, but still allow a lockie to pick/disassemble and reset the MK pin. Good idea IMHO, been thinking about construction keys?

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 19:10

Non obvious problem. On a cylinder drilled for six but pinned for five, the tip of the key often reaches far enough to interact with a pin in the 6th chamber.

Didn't think of that one...... :oops:

by **Varjeal** » 31 Mar 2004 19:24

Here's one for ya...

Take the cover off a six-pin cylinder and tap the chambers of all six. The purpose of this is to leave grooves for the serrated and/or spool pins to hang up on. Use serrated bottom pins and make all the spool top pins stainless. Insert a ball bearing between the spring and top pin. Of course, key it to the extreme MACS in the following manner from front to back: Deep, shallow, deep, shallow, deep, shallow.

By having a deep cut in the first position, there is a good chance when picking the rearward pins that you will "bump" the first pin and cause it to false set. Pick guns will have immense trouble with the ball-bearings, and the pins (both top and bottom) will false set enough times to make you scream.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 19:30

Clarification.

Take the cover off a six-pin cylinder and tap the chambers of all six.

Tapping involves cutting a thread with a 'tap', and not striking the object. Obvious to most of us, but there'll be some newbs querying this otherwise.

by **mcm757207** » 31 Mar 2004 19:42

lol that was a lot of replies... well- how about this. No spring/driver on the 6 hole? I'm just trying to find a practical way of doing it (sorta)... cuz I have teh tools/pins/cylinders needed at the locksmith shop I sorta work at.... and I would grind the key down so it didn't interfere with the 6th pin.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 19:53

I can see the "No spring/driver on the 6th hole" working, but kinda defeats the purpose - the idea was to lock the plug if a picking attempt was made. No spring or driver in No 6 would be no better than no No6 at all.
The other problem is as Chucklz stated:

On a cylinder drilled for six but pinned for five, the tip of the key often reaches far enough to interact with a pin in the 6th chamber.

Attempting to modify the key to alleviate this problem, would probably entail the key having too steep an angle to properly lift the 'working' pins correctly, resulting in excess force being required to insert the key.

by **Chucklz** » 31 Mar 2004 20:01

About Varjeals wicked plan,

If anyone plans to use this, I have a few suggestions. Firstly, pick a really good quality cylinder, like a Schlage, Yale, etc. When getting your keys cut, ask for nickel silver blanks, for added strenght at the bow. With a very deep cut near the bow, the key is more prone to breakage, unfortunately.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 20:05

About Varjeals wicked plan,

If anyone plans to use this, I have a few suggestions. Firstly, pick a really good quality cylinder, like a Schlage, Yale, etc. When getting your keys cut, ask for nickel silver blanks, for added strenght at the bow. With a very deep cut near the bow, the key is more prone to breakage, unfortunately.

Would this now be "Chucklz's wicked plan"? :lol:

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 20:10

I now curse you with a non-picking spree of 3 months mcm151201!!
You've got my brain working so hard, I'll probably get to sleep when I should be starting work in the morning. :lol:

by **Chucklz** » 31 Mar 2004 20:21

Nah, its all Varjeal. Just adding suggestions.

by **Mad Mick** » 31 Mar 2004 20:24

Wicked all the same........

by **plot** » 31 Mar 2004 20:35

to the original plan, wouldn't turning the lock upside down make the pin fall back to where it should be?

would have to be at the sheer line under normal conditions, just don't see how it'd work...

Idea on Un-pickable lock...

Idea on Un-pickable lock...

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