Rake first, then SPP?

[CptedIV]

I've tried it a few times, but never successfully. Is it possible to just rake out a lock with a snake, then get missed pins with a hook? I just have a No.3 that I pick over and over, but I can only get it using the S rake, and not the hook yet. Also I have trouble with my tension wrench sliding down to the bottom of the keyway when I start to push up pins with the hook pick. Thanks,
Ed

[MacGyver101]

Is it possible to just rake out a lock with a snake, then get missed pins with a hook?

Absolutely! I think quite a number of people turn to that approach when they're dealing with a tricky lock -- I think it's also fairly common practice amongst some of the competitors in the speed-picking competitions.

Also I have trouble with my tension wrench sliding down to the bottom of the keyway when I start to push up pins with the hook pick.

See my reply to your question in the other thread.

[CptedIV]

on Raking: Sometimes after raking my number 3 with the snake, or the S lookin one, it feels like I have all the pins up, and it won't turn. When I let the tension off, Im positive I can hear all pins falling back, as if they were set. Then I can do it again and half the time it will work, half the time it wont... Is there a way to do it wrong so that it won't open, so that you have to reset the pins and start over? I've tried raking, then when it doesnt open going in with the half diamond and trying to feel the pins, but it seems like they are all up but it still wont open.
I know this is off topic but, is there a big difference between regular door locks, (like handle and deadbolt locks) and padlocks? I can't seem to get anywhere with a door lock, its a older schlage and its off the door.
Thanks,
Ed

[MacGyver101]

. . . it feels like I have all the pins up, and it won't turn. When I let the tension off, Im positive I can hear all pins falling back, as if they were set.

It is certainly possible to apply too much tension, and to have the rake over-lift the pins, jamming them partially above the shear line. In this case, they're falling back, but they're not falling back from a "set" position -- and that is likely what you're hearing here. Without being able to really evaluate what's happening for you, I'd simply suggest trying less tension.

[LeeNo]

. . . it feels like I have all the pins up, and it won't turn. When I let the tension off, Im positive I can hear all pins falling back, as if they were set.

It is certainly possible to apply too much tension, and to have the rake over-lift the pins, jamming them partially above the shear line. In this case, they're falling back, but they're not falling back from a "set" position -- and that is likely what you're hearing here. Without being able to really evaluate what's happening for you, I'd simply suggest trying less tension.

This is almost certainly what is happening. If you apply too much tension, you can trap pins against the shell that are overset.

You only want to apply barely enough tension to overcome whatever "springiness" exists in the lock. If you apply such a light tension then the pins your rake lifts that aren't the binding pin won't get jammed against the shell ("overset"), they will be able to fall back down to the keyway.

Remember - the object isn't to "lift" all the pins. The object is to lift each pin just high enough that its driver pin is raised above the shear-line and the light tension on the wrench rotates the plug beneath it just enough to prevent the driver from re-entering the plug.

[CptedIV]

I see. Got it down, I can open a couple master locks in no time now. What about deadbolts..? I have one that I can't get like I can the padlocks. Is there a difference there?

[LeeNo]

I see. Got it down, I can open a couple master locks in no time now. What about deadbolts..? I have one that I can't get like I can the padlocks. Is there a difference there?

In theory, there is no difference whatsoever (ssuming a pin/tumbler lock). But the actual lock you are working on might have security pins or may be just of a higher quality which would make feeling when a pin has set more difficult. It might also just have a more difficult keying/pinning.

If the deadbolt lock is mounted on a door, there is also the comfort factor. With padlocks, we can hold them in our hands and use our thumb or other finger to apply tension. With a mounted lock, we need to use totally different muscles and until you learn the subtleties of this you may not be correctly acting on the feedback you think you are getting from your hands.

[Eyes_Only]

Sometimes on the job site I'll run into a Schalge lock with security pins that will give me trouble.

In these situations where I've already spent 5 mins trying to pick the lock manually with a hook pick, what I'll do is start all over and just set a couple pin stacks and then take my pick gun to it to take care of the rest.

[raimundo]

Hey LEENO holding padlocks is ok but in minnesota, where I often pick the back gate when going out, the temperature is around 0 which I learned this morning from the TV is around 18 below celsius. the worst part of picking the lock is the left hand having to hold that cold sucker.
I have developed a way to pick with gloves on by pushing the pick and tensor through holes in the gloves, also works with mittens. If it gets any colder, I will have to carry a hotpad from the kitchen to wrap the lock in.

[LeeNo]

Hey LEENO holding padlocks is ok but in minnesota, where I often pick the back gate when going out, the temperature is around 0 which I learned this morning from the TV is around 18 below celsius. the worst part of picking the lock is the left hand having to hold that cold sucker.
I have developed a way to pick with gloves on by pushing the pick and tensor through holes in the gloves, also works with mittens. If it gets any colder, I will have to carry a hotpad from the kitchen to wrap the lock in.

LOL! That is hardcore
I can see you in a snowmobile suit and ski-mask with lockpicks and tension wrenches coming out of all of your glove's fingers. You'd look like the perffect new slasher-film villian!

I've experienced Minnsota winters before. When I was still in the 2/75, we'd do our arctic training at Camp Ripley. I still remember pulling our akio like we were sled dogs. Good times (not!)

[raimundo]

second of the 75th, eh, those were called lurps in vn Whats an akio?

[LeeNo]

second of the 75th, eh, those were called lurps in vn Whats an akio?

Ahkio (I misspelled it in my post) is basically a sled about 7 feet long and 2.5 feet wide. They are fibreglass. It is just an open hollow shell. Each infantry squad would hav an ahkio and in it we would store our 10-man tent, C-rats, ammo, skis, stove, gasoline and other supplies. The sled was pulled by 5 or 6 of us literally hooked up to it like sled dogs.

It's how dismounted infantry carries supplies during arctic conditions on long-distance patrols:

http://www.backcountrysurvival.com/fm-3 ... leds.shtml

[Jaakko]

second of the 75th, eh, those were called lurps in vn Whats an akio?

Ahkio (I misspelled it in my post) is basically a sled about 7 feet long and 2.5 feet wide.

Totally offtopic, but funny thing is that "ahkio" is a word used in Finnish to describe the same thing and I thought the word is nt used in any other language

[CptedIV]

So.. This is kind of off topic now but... I can set all but one pin, still, all the others drop back down, but this one still springs back every time... I tried pushing it really really hard with hook and half diamond, but that didnt really work.. Maybe that pin has to go first? Whats biting?
Thanks,
Ed

[MacGyver101]

I tried pushing it really really hard with hook and half diamond, but that didnt really work..

It's possible that pin barely needs to be raised at all in order to be "set". Have a look at the key: if the cut in that pin position is very deep, then it's possible that you don't need to lift the pin much at all.

Whats biting?

It refers to the pattern of cuts on the key. You'll sometimes see people refer to locks with a "hard biting": in these cases, they're usually talking about a lock with lots of alternating "high" and "low" cuts. A "high" pin (one that needs to be raised quite a bit) that is directly behind a "low" pin (one that shouldn't be raised at all) can make picking challenging: it's very easy to accidentally over-raise the "low" pin while setting the "high" pin, without the right technique and choice of pick (both of which vary from lock to lock).

As you're starting to discover, each type of lock can present its own unique challenges... it's what makes this hobby fun!