Most pins?

[Gelmar]

What's the most pins on a single lock any of you have seen? I work in a hospital and the doors which have keys (and not an RFID magnetic lock) have 12 pins.

[Beyond]

I'm curious, what is an RFID magnetic lock? Are you thinking of an access control setup with an electric strike triggered by a card reader using RFID technology? I've never heard of an RFID magnetic lock.

[Gelmar]

We use Radio Frequency ID Badges and readers for the secure floors, elevators, and a few of the outside doors to the hospital. All of the outside doors have heavy weight magnets holding the doors shut instead of bolts, (save one door inwhich part of the jamb is the locking mechanism). But most of the doors in the hospital are shut with magnets. So i'd just assumed that's what they'd be called. If i'm wrong and they have a different name tell me!

[Beyond]

We use Radio Frequency ID Badges and readers for the secure floors, elevators, and a few of the outside doors to the hospital.

RFID is the technology they use, not necessarily the name of the card.

All of the outside doors have heavy weight magnets holding the doors shut instead of bolts, (save one door inwhich part of the jamb is the locking mechanism).

Mag-lock.

But most of the doors in the hospital are shut with magnets. So i'd just assumed that's what they'd be called. If i'm wrong and they have a different name tell me!

It's just an access control set up using prox readers, presumably, and mag locks. You present the correct credentials, power is temporarily cut to the lock allowing you to open and pass through, after a short period of time power is restored and the door is locked.

[freakparade3]

Alot of masterkeyed locks have at least 21 pins. If they have a grand master system or great grand master system they will have many more pins. It just depends.

[JackNco]

I think he means pin stacks not pins?

As for stacks i think Kaba do one with up to 24 pin stacks and ive seen a concept (still not in production) for a lock with up to 50 driver less pins.

[linty]

is it really possible to use more than one master wafer in the same chamber effectively? I keep hearing people say this and in 2 years as a locksmith i've never seen it done and don't see why you would want to.

every master pin in a lock doubles the amount of possible key bittings that will open it, every change key other than the intended one that would open that lock can no longer be used in the system.

I don't see how doubling up master wafers could make the system bigger.
I never work on systems larger than 1000 or so change keys. Any institutional locksmiths have experience doubling up masters?

[JackNco]

Linty I have no idea how well it works in the real world but some dummy wafers/maser pins would make it much harder to decode a master key system if you had access to a lock.

For example a padlock with the same masterkey as a building system or a replaced lock thrown out by mistake.

John

[globallockytoo]

Bilock uses a cylinder with 12 pins (13, when you count the trigger). Master keying is achieved without extra pins.

In conventional inline master key systems, multiple pin stacks are used in pin chambers, often in maison and great grand master key systems.

The disadvantage in building a heavily master keyed cylinder is the levl of pick resistance is severely reduced with each extra master pin added.

Abloy and Bilock designs maintain the level of high security and pick resistance irrespective of the size of any system.

Bilock, using the sidebar principle, have no need for "top pins" or master wafers or "drivers" because they use sidebars as their primary locking system.

Medeco and Primus systems use sidebars as a secondary security device and the cylinders cannot be effectively secured as easily.

The best master keying system, without doubt is Abloy protec. 1.8 billion possible codes per keyway, very little or no interchange (ghosting or phantoms) in a properly designed system. This is achieved because Abloy protec uses 10 discs x 7 depths.

Enough of the waffling...zzzzz...zzzzz

[yoyoboy]

is it really possible to use more than one master wafer in the same chamber effectively? I keep hearing people say this and in 2 years as a locksmith i've never seen it done and don't see why you would want to.

I don't see how doubling up master wafers could make the system bigger.
I never work on systems larger than 1000 or so change keys. Any institutional locksmiths have experience doubling up masters?

You don't really need extra pins in order to generate more changes, however, if you need to do something a bit more complex it becomes necessary.
Here's an example problem from school:
Selective masterkeying
Say you have a office suite, the CEO has to be able to get into every room. There is a Super that needs access to every room except the CEO's. There are the CEO's two sons who help run the company and need to be able to get into every room except the CEO's office and each other's office.

With a two step progression this can all be done in one position.

[freakparade3]

is it really possible to use more than one master wafer in the same chamber effectively? I keep hearing people say this and in 2 years as a locksmith i've never seen it done and don't see why you would want to.

Pick up a copy of Bill Phillips "The complete book of locks and locksmithing". It explains grand master and great grand master keying. It's very interesting to me now that I have read it over a dozen times and finally got what the heck he was talking about. That section of the book is definately not for for beginners. I first thought the book was useless, I later realized that I bought the book to early and just did not understand.

[gotta]

RFID=Proximity readers and cards.

I took apart a Schlage cylinder from a pool gate that had been crossed keyed for all the keys in a motel. They called me because keys kept getting stuck as the keys were rotated. The .030 master pins were getting caught between the shell and plug. That lock had 36 pins in it. I replaced the lock with a Simplex L1000.

[globallockytoo]

is it really possible to use more than one master wafer in the same chamber effectively? I keep hearing people say this and in 2 years as a locksmith i've never seen it done and don't see why you would want to.

I don't see how doubling up master wafers could make the system bigger.
I never work on systems larger than 1000 or so change keys. Any institutional locksmiths have experience doubling up masters?

You don't really need extra pins in order to generate more changes, however, if you need to do something a bit more complex it becomes necessary.
Here's an example problem from school:
Selective masterkeying
Say you have a office suite, the CEO has to be able to get into every room. There is a Super that needs access to every room except the CEO's. There are the CEO's two sons who help run the company and need to be able to get into every room except the CEO's office and each other's office.

With a two step progression this can all be done in one position.

This is a bit of an ambiguous statement isnt it?

You don't really need extra pins in order to generate more changes, however, if you need to do something a bit more complex it becomes necessary.

Actually, you do require additional pins to generate more changes. The more available spacings (chambers) the greater the number of possible changes.

It is true that many master key systems can be built without using all chambers and in many cases this will actually happen, but that is generally due to the system designer preferring to use more constants in a pinning chart. However, I have installed both Bilock and Protec is one "institution" because they required countless thousands of different keys. It is far easier to do this with those products than with conventional inline cylinders (aside from the security factor).

In your example, you would not even need a two-step progression, you could easily use a 3 or 4 step progression, which would actually reduce the number of available keys in your system, but this can be a good thing,

[globallockytoo]

RFID=Proximity readers and cards.

I took apart a Schlage cylinder from a pool gate that had been crossed keyed for all the keys in a motel. They called me because keys kept getting stuck as the keys were rotated. The .030 master pins were getting caught between the shell and plug. That lock had 36 pins in it. I replaced the lock with a Simplex L1000.

Interestingly, a long established company in my town (wont mention their name) is reknowned for deliberately leaving chambers empty in even KA systems. For some reason, many trainers taught that maison keying worked better if only the constants were used. In some cases with hardware that have wide tolerances in their plugs, like Kwikset or Weiser, I can understand their mentality even though I disagree in principle.

[raimundo]

that pool lock would probably work with just about any schlage key you stuck into it.

how many pins in the trio ving card lock or are they called ballbearings, someone with LSS look it up?