Repinning Primus/Schlage lock

[Exodus5000]

I have never re-pinned a lock before.
With that said, I asked my place of employment if they had any locks that they wouldn't mind parting with. They gave me the lock that was not pinned correctly for any of their keys to work with that they had in storage.

The plug is encased in its case, and i have attempted picking this a few times, but needless to say it is very difficult, and i have not succeeded. I think the lock is employing more security than simply pins, perhaps a sidebar. Anyways, I dont necessarily want to repin it, I want to open it up and see how it works. How do I remove the case so that I can see the pins work without destroying the lock. If this is not possible, is there a way i can grind the casing of the lock so that i can visibly see the pins set, and therefore pick the lock visibly?

[Romstar]

Okay, I'll bite.

What sort of lock is it? I think that is an important piece of information.

Also, if you could maybe get a picture that would be good.

Romstar

[Exodus5000]

It's a primus/schlage lock.
The company ordered a bunch of them, but only had enough pinned at once to work in the south wing.

I dont have a means to take a picture, but this link might help:
http://everestprimus.schlage.com/features.asp

The picture includes everything I have inside of the solid brass shell.
Can't for the life of me seem to find a way to remove the shell.

[Romstar]

Yeah, that was my bad. I missed the topic line.

That is a sidebar lock as you can see from the diagram. That means you have to pick not only the pins, but lift the sidebar pins as well. It's like picking twice.

In addition, the sidebar is designed to not give a place for the sidebar pins to set. hey don't catch as easily. The purpose of the sidebar is to also enhance the security of the plug by not allowing it to turn as much as a normal pin cylinder.

If you manage to pick this lock, and get the cylinder to turn you can then remove the screw at the rear that holds the turning cam.

After that, use a plug follower to remove the plug. Pin as desired once you have disassembled the lock.

Quite honestly, this is not an easy lock to pick.

I wish you luck,
Romstar

[Exodus5000]

I was just thinking to myself as i read your post, "ah crap, I dont know if i can pick this lock."

Is there a particular way i would pick sidebar pins. Are they in a different position, any kind of technique?

Who knows, maybe i'll get lucky with some raking.

[CaptHook]

Bear in mind, the sidebar pins dont "set" like normal pins. You may end up drilling a small hole beside the sidebar so you can put some pressure against it. Ive never worked on this cylinder, but Im thinking the sidebar should be picked first?
Chuck

[Exodus5000]

Would that mean that it would be impossible to pick a lock with a sidebar without drilling it?

Anyway, knowing this type of security on the lock i have, i dont mind ruining it. Anyone know of a way I can grind the casing to expose the side of the pins so i can see them set, and also the sidebar pins so i can work with them a well?

[WhiteHat]

there's another nice diagram here:

from:
http://www.chez.com/montmartre/schlage.html

don't think it was on the site that you sent. I wonder if it helps....

see also:

viewtopic.php?t=2808

[locksmistress]

If you're just looking to get the plug out you don't have to pick the whole thing - The side bar prevents rotation but not longitudinal movement so you shouldn't have to pick the finger pins at all to pull out the plug.

If you can get at the cam/tail/screw cap at the back, take that off and shim-pick the main pins from back to front. I'm not sure what you would use as a shim if you don't have cylinder shims already... Then just pull the plug as usual with a follower but don't turn it.

Also, keep a finger against the side bar and along the bottom to control your spring loaded parts. The sidebar can make a good 60 inches if unencumbered.

[greyman]

I'm reposting this article on "Schlage Primus Locks" here to increase circulation to potentially interested readers.

Keysman wrote:

MMMM ??? I don’t know what you mean. .. there are apx 15,000 different side bar combinations, they are distributed randomly to dealers or large end users.
There are some “open keyways” that are dealer specific, meaning you as a “sub dealer “could buy blanks.

I'm interested in how the number of side-bar codes come out at around 15,000. My understanding of Primus is that there are 3 finger pin angles, so a 5 finger-pin lock would give 3*3*3*3*3=243 combinations. Bo Widen's original patent mentioned different heights for the side pins also, but I can't see how you'd come out with around 15000 overall codes. Does Schlage Primus use different heights for the finger pin cuts? I thought there was only 1 height but a differing cut offset to get the angle.

Can someone help me to understand this, specifically I'd like to know
1. How many twist angles are there for the finger pins (2 or 3)?
2. How many elevations are there for the finger pins (2, 3, 4, 5???)

Similar info on the Assa Twin Combi would also be appreciated.

[TOWCH]

If you have access to the back of the plug, it's a simple matter of shimming the main pins and ignoring the sidebar altogether. As lockmistress said, the sidebar will not prevent removal of the plug, only rotation. If you need shims, find a CD jewel case and look for the white rectangular security sensor. If you don't see one lift up the black circular part because that's typically where one is hidden. Then cut it open and remove the metal sheets. Be carefull when removing the plug because as I learned the hard way with Primus, they have pins that come out of both the top and bottom. The only way to do this with out causing problems is over a towel emptying one pin stack at a time. If you are trying to make a key to match more locks keyed the same this prevents you from losing the bitting.

[Varjeal]

If I recall correctly...I'll have to check the literature....but Primus uses 4 depths (not angles) and five positions. Still doesn't add up though does it? It could refer to the additional number of keyways that are available which would increase that amount. BTW, of course, sidebar codes have no MACS.

[TOWCH]

My experience is 3 angles, 2 heights. Maybe I'm wrong on the heights but I know the angles for sure. Look at the side milling and you'll notice the low points on the wavy sidemilling to be different distances apart. This determines the angle: left, right, or none. I'm beginning to think a universal primus bump key is possible.

[Exodus5000]

My experience is 3 angles, 2 heights. Maybe I'm wrong on the heights but I know the angles for sure. Look at the side milling and you'll notice the low points on the wavy sidemilling to be different distances apart. This determines the angle: left, right, or none. I'm beginning to think a universal primus bump key is possible.

Crap, all my old posts from last year are being dug up, and all those easy/embarrasing questions I asked are coming back to haunt me! Hehe.

Anyways, TOWCH, did you read my post on a primus bump key? I've actually employed this technique to open the primus that I speak of in this post. I don't know if it will work on other primus' but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[TOWCH]

I'm not sure which post you're talking about, the only posts on primus that have really stuck in my head are a few of Skolds. Could you hook me up with a link?