How do you identify the type of keyhole

[gr00ve]

how do you identify the type of keyhole a lock has such as an "L" key or "S"? i tried looking for the answer i couldnt find it.

[ridinplugspinnaz]

how do you identify the type of keyhole a lock has such as an "L" key or "S"? i tried looking for the answer i couldnt find it.

I'll be the first to say it -- for the last time, STOP trying to screw around with your university's BEST lock system. It's clear to me from your previous threads that even though you claim to have stopped trying to mess with campus locks, your continued questions and your posts strongly imply otherwise. I'll be blunt here, it's members that ask questions like these that have a chilling effect on the discussions in this forum. More knowledgeable members decide not to talk about such systems for their reservations that the information will not be used for benevolent purposes... which in this case is a wholly justifiable assumption, if you ask me.

Pyrrhus, this is precisely why articles like the one you linked shouldn't be promoted here.

[WOT]

how do you identify the type of keyhole a lock has such as an "L" key or "S"? i tried looking for the answer i couldnt find it.

This is one of the most difficult tasks. Knowing the brand, or the shape of the bow cuts down on this task significantly.

Neuter bow (square bow with no personality traits) are precisely intended to frustrate keyway identification.

Proper key acceptance/rejection has very close tolerance and even top notch after market makers like Ilco can't do even do it right.

Just as an example, properly made Best J,K,L and M are incompatible with eachother, however they're very difficult to visually distinguish. Improperly made blanks sometimes enter more than one keyways, or don't enter the intended keyway smoothly.

[Pyrhhus]

Look, I'll agree with you that perhaps Groov's line of questioning is a little troubling, but again, what I linked was one of the more common pieces of literature on the internet. Were the paper in question some sort of controlled information then you would be absolutely right in chastising me for posting. The fact of the matter is, Matt Blaze's crypto.com is one premier sites for those interested in lockpicking. Just because groove doesn't bother to look these things up for himself doesn't mean he isn't going to find them.

LP 101 is a site with informed, responsible adults (for the most part) who practice the hobby in a legal and mature manner. Now, what would you rather have, someone attempting to pick locks they shouldn't be picking with no knowledge of what they are doing, potentially damaging the lock or worse; or have them come to the forums and actually get a lesson on what is and is not acceptable?

Consider the analogy of alcohol use. A lot of kids head off to college and get in trouble with alcohol because our laws and culture oppose drinking before the age of 21. Kids binge and are not informed about the consequences and effects of alcohol. Now contrast that to a European culture where alcohol is viewed much more reasonable. There are far less incidents of alcohol abuse by minors simply because they were taught about it in a more responsible manner. I think the same case could be made for lockpicking. Let's be honest, a lot of the attraction to lockpicking, especially for novices, is the mystique associated with gaining access to places you shouldn't.

I understand where you are coming from Ridin, and I will admit, there is no easy solution to the problem. There is a lot of gray area when it comes to what is and is not ethically permissible, and I by no means claim to be an expert on the topic. Lets just agree to disagree on this one as to where we draw that line. I think we both understand where each other are coming from.

A fork, shall we?

Also, Groove, your school probably uses Best's PKS system, meaning the keys are controlled and you can't get blanks. I agree with Ridin on this one; STOP trying.

[ridinplugspinnaz]

<snip>

Pyrhhus, you have my apology if I came off as rather kurt in my earlier reply here. I think it's pretty clear that you have the best interests of balancing locksport discussion with responsible disclosure of security in mind, so forgive me if you felt like I had implied otherwise. In fact I agree with you on many points in your above post, and would actually very much enjoy discussing the finer points of master-keyed systems under different circumstances.

It's just when I see people asking lines of questions like this, it makes me somewhat hesitant to have that kind of discussion. To my mind, they're questions being asked not out of genuine curiosity with regard to the locks, so much as questions about the mechanics of implementing something they read somewhere else (which in this particular case I suspect to be the Blaze paper). As I see it, people asking questions equivalent to "how do I get from step 2 to step 3" aren't really interested in learning about the lock itself, so much as trying to do something to it.

Anyway, I don't want this to get negative. I'll leave it to the responsible members of LP101 to post what they'll post. If to my mind, I feel like the right types of questions are being asked, the ones that reflect a genuine curiosity for how the system works, perhaps I'll feel more inclined to share what I know about it. No hard feelings Pyrhhus, to a large extent we agree more than we disagree on this one, probably more than my earlier posts might have suggested... looking forward to seeing more of your posts on LP101.

[gr00ve]

im not trying to pick my schools locks... theres no where i need to go that i dont have access too, i was just curious, sheesh. i understand the concern but you dont have to condemn me.

[gr00ve]

i am completely legit, sure i may be young in some of your eyes as I am only 20 but i have no criminal intent in mind, nor have I ever.

i own all my own locks or have been given them and i just consider locks as puzzles and i enjoy cracking them

[gr00ve]

and just one last thing, you clearly have not read all my posts previous to this one mainly because only some of my original posts were about these locks but i soon learned not to pick locks in use, not mine, ect. and this question was actually in regard to this masterlock i have the "Safety Lockout" one which has a crazy keyway and i only mentioned "S" and "L" because those are some of the only ones ive ever heard of... also "K" i think

[WOT]

and just one last thing, you clearly have not read all my posts previous to this one mainly because only some of my original posts were about these locks but i soon learned not to pick locks in use, not mine, ect. and this question was actually in regard to this masterlock i have the "Safety Lockout" one which has a crazy keyway and i only mentioned "S" and "L" because those are some of the only ones ive ever heard of... also "K" i think

Look in Ilco catalog online, or Master page. They might have an array (a chart). If they're not on there, they might be "restricted ones" they don't want to show you.

[Pyrhhus]

Sorry Groove if we are prematurely judging your intentions - odds are you have good ones in mind. I must say, however, that Ridin did have a point and that some of your questions were kind of suspicious. I can attest to this as well since my first interest in lockpicking came about through trying to fiddle with my campus' Best dorm locks, in a pattern that is nearly identical to your own. I have since learned better, but when I first read some of your original posts, it was eerie how similar that line of questions sounded.

I am convinced you mean the best, and so I apologize if we have been haranguing you unjustly.

Also, Ridin, glad we could find some common ground. And I didn't take your earlier posts as being rude in any way. It was fairly clear we both had pretty good intentions.

[raimundo]

while most locksmiths learn key blank identification as the first basic skill, they still rely on the brand name of a lock for much of the information on what tribe of blanks may be necessary. Best has an L blank, Schage also has an L designated blank, Even general motors briggs and stratton locks have an L blank. These blanks are in no way related. A letter designation should also include which brand of locks is referred to.

There are some really common keyways that of course people tend to recognize, the schlage C comes to mind, but on a renegade cylinder, with no name or a name unknown to the locksmith, if it looks like a schlage C blank it could easily be an E schlage, and visually it would be difficult to see particularly if the lock is somewhat worn. So the final way to recognize the keyway would be to put the blank in and see if it fits. By fits, I mean goes in easily, with no friction.

Right now I would like to get a few blanks for an abus 60/65, I have a blank I have modified to go in, but I want to impress a key so that may not be good enough.