Calibrating the Foley Belsaw 200A

[Lorek]

Ok, So I have a Foley Belsaw 200A and I'm sort of at a loss as to why the machines not duplicating correctly. I figured I should start off with the manual so I did everything they say in the manual from adjusting the lateral adjustment and then moving onto the setting the micrometer to 0 degree's and adjusting the depth on two blanks and all that jazz. Needless to say 5 hours and 40 blanks later, I just can't seem to figure out why the machine won't duplicate keys correctly.

I first started off using the electronic key adjuster with three leads and manually adjusting it until only one point on the cutter touched, and then proceeded to cut a key, and try it out. The original that I was duplicating from was an unused factory kwikset key. Well, at this point the machine didn't meet the kwikset standard. Adjusted it a bit more attempted another cut, and again. So I figured ok maybe this adjuster isn't right.

So I then brought out the digital caliper and started taking measurements from the original key and the duplicate subtracting to find the difference.

Keeping in mind that the digital caliper I'm using has a +- .001" room for error these are the measurements I came up with for the factory key.
Root: .334"
#1 .282"
#2 .217"
#3 .283"
#4 .258"
#5 .326"

So the first cut key had
Root: .337" +.003"
#1 .284" +.002"
#2 .218" +.001"
#3 .286" +.003"
#4 .262" +.004"
#5 .330" +.004"

So it was cutting a little shallow, I adjusted it and then tried again.
I then got
Root: .336" +.002"
#1 .281" -.001"
#2 .216" -.001"
#3 .284" +.001"
#4 .258" 0.000"
#5 .328" +.002"

Now that key didn't work either. It was my understanding that keys only had to be cut to a precision of ~.002"-~.001" between and that second key didn't even come close to turning the lock. So I adjusted it a few more times with worse and worse results, and now I'm just really stumped. Obviously if it can't cut a kwikset accurately, there's no way it could cut a schlage accurately. Anyone have any ideas where I'm going wrong?

[tacedeous]

I cant understand why you have these issues...one thing that screwed me up is the fact that you need to use the movable u shaped shoulder gauge, to align the keys... the spacing between the jaws that you clamp the keys into is not Symmetrical to the cutter and guide..., another thing I found with the FB200 machine is the need to tighten everything up , and hammer the belt housing on the cutter shaft in, because when I got it there was about a 1/4 in. of play between all the fittings on the cutter shaft... so tighten it all down so there is no play, calibrate off the shoulder gauge, and you should be dead on, you will have to adjust left to right on the guide when you switch between code and duplication wheels/guides, I'am actually impressed by the fb200 code cutter/duplicator its been referred to as a diamond in the rough, and I see it as such... try what I said, and post your results...

[jimb]

Did you adjust the spacing also? If so do you have the correct cutter and guide on the machine?

The second key you cut should work, in fact chances are that the first key would also work. It sounds like you need to adjust the space between the cutter and the guide, the distance between them must match the shoulder guide. I don't duplicate a lot of keys and find it easier to just line up the shoulder of the blank with the cutter and the shoulder of the original with the guide, with the power off. This way I don't have to worry about this calibration being off.

[Squelchtone]

Did you adjust the spacing also? If so do you have the correct cutter and guide on the machine?

The second key you cut should work, in fact chances are that the first key would also work. It sounds like you need to adjust the space between the cutter and the guide, the distance between them must match the shoulder guide. I don't duplicate a lot of keys and find it easier to just line up the shoulder of the blank with the cutter and the shoulder of the original with the guide, with the power off. This way I don't have to worry about this calibration being off.

This is a good way to cut 10-10-10 bump keys, which often work better than a standard 9 9 9 bump key. Basically set the guide 1 cut depth away from the 999 key and when you duplicate it onto a blank it will cut 1 depth deeper than the original key you are tracing.



Squelchtone

[Lorek]

Ok, So if its not my depth's it must be the spacing. I'll tweak that a bit. I had a hard time getting the lateral spacing set correctly because the machine didn't come with the two key's that are supposed to have the V cuts in them. So I made two using an HPC Code Cutter. It seems like there's a little pull in the shaft that the blade/pulley is connected to but I'm not sure how to fix that. All the screws seem to be tight as well as the nut holding the cutter on. The cutter I've been using is the 45 degree blade so I can't line up the keys with the blade or without the metal gauge. The manual says I can cut duplicates using the 45 degree cutter as long as I take care with any square cuts that some keys are apt to have.

Any suggestions on how I can fix my lateral spacing? Also, as a side note should I be using the guide, I've seen some posts that suggest ditching the guide completely. I've never found it that helpful, but I do see the need for one when using a 45 degree cutter as you can't line up the key with the blade, oh wait, I suppose I could tip stop it and line it up that way. Should I ditch the guide?

[tacedeous]

to make the spacing between the pulley closer just back off the black bolt, and tap towards the cutter, now when you switch the cutters, just be sure to put it all back together so the assembly is snug, not so snug that it create friction, just till there is no lateral movement..

also like jimb I'v been skippin the guide all together, and just clamping the guide key first, line its shoulder to the gauge. the to the same on your cut key...using this methods means no real adjustments between cutters...

[jimb]

The cutter I've been using is the 45 degree blade so I can't line up the keys with the blade or without the metal gauge. The manual says I can cut duplicates using the 45 degree cutter as long as I take care with any square cuts that some keys are apt to have.

Any suggestions on how I can fix my lateral spacing?

The cutter you are using is the code cutter, call Foley Belsaw and order a duplicating cutter. I haven't priced them for a year or better but if I remember correctly they are only about 25 bucks. As far as the slop goes you may have a washer missing. If you have a parts manual check to make sure all the parts are there.

[Lorek]

Ok, I moved the motor back a bit so that the pulley is snug. I'll be doing a full part inventory on the machine later tonight to make sure everything's there. I do have the manual so that's no problem at all. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Lorek]

Ok so I did a complete breakdown and, unless i'm completely blind, it looks like i'm missing a bearing and a alemite fitting though I could just not know what i'm looking for. I haven't had much experience with bearings. I think the parts that are missing are Parts # K-373 and K-372. I'll post some pictures just to be sure before I order for them. Since geocities won't allow remote linking the url with the 3 pictures is here.

http://www.geocities.com/lor3k@ymail.com/

[TigerDragon]

The current 2009 catalogue prices for cutters and guides are:

Code cutter - $28.35
Duplicater cutter - $28.35
Steel cutter - $19.10

I don't have the exact prices for the guides, but a duplicating cutter + guide, and steel cutter + guide, and shipping was just under $60. I had to have these two cutters and guides replaced earlier this month. They got lost in the year between the last lesson I had done and the lessons from the final module that I completed last month.

I have the part numbers for those two guides (steel and duplicator) if you need them, but FB should be able to look them up if that's the case.

It's important to use the correct cutter with the correct guide, and you will need to recalibrate any time you swap between sets.

[Lorek]

ahh, I have a replacement cutter but its still giving me problems. I'm thinking its because of that bearing/alemite fitting.

[TigerDragon]

I've never heard the term alemite used before, so I'm not sure what you mean be that.
I'm pretty sure what you have taken a picture of is just a bushing. I haven't dismantled mine to see if there are bearings behind the bushings, but I don't think there are. I think it just uses bushings.

I'm planning on posting pictures of my machine later.

[thelockpickkid]

I also had numerous problems with my foley-Belsaw machine, I don't mean to take away from this forum so please forgive me, you should really talk to Moose over on keypicking forum, he knows the inside and out of this machine and he helped me get mine going.

[barbarian]

I think an alemite fitting is a grease fitting or zerk.

http://www.alemite.com/catalog/details. ... r=fittings

[Engineer]

I am pleased you are sticking with this machine as it's a problem I've never heard of before an am interested one day to finally find out what is causing it.

Looking at the differences in the depths of cuts, from what they are supposed to be. You can adjust it so the centre depths are right, but it's not cutting deep enough for the shallowest and deepeest cuts.

I'm assuming you are not using a micrometer type attachment to try and cut a key to "code" but are just trying to straightforward duplicate the factory key?

Right, if the depth adjuster was somehow out, then all the depths would be out by the same amount - So that is fine.

If the cutting wheel was out in some way, or vibrating, then all the cuts would be out by the same amount as well, so that is alright.

The motor would make no difference, so that can be discounted.

If the vices were out, then it would affect all the depths the same, or even if the key was skewed, then the depths would be out in a linear fashion, not this "U" shape it is cutting to.

This lead me to two thought and neither is very nice, since we are talking about 3 thousandths of an inch here. Big enough to cause problems, but small enough to be a pig to find.

The supports that hold the carriage could be mis-aligned - Has it been dropped, or treated roughly at all? What would happen is that as the key is sliding left to right, it is not always staying truly horizontal to the cutting wheel, but is passing by the wheel so the end of the key is either going up, or going down. The machine has been adjusted so the middle is accurate, but the extremes of the key are going too high or too low on the wheel. I migth be able to work out the chances of this if you could post a picture of the original key you are triyng to duplicate please? Please pardom my ignorance of the FB system, but I just haven't come across one over here yet...

There might be another way to tell if this is the cause, if it is mis-alignment of the supporting posts? If it is, then the deeper and shallower cuts will actually be deeper on one side of the key than the other, by roughly 0.003". This will be fiddly, but if you hold one of the cut keys upright (like you were going to insert it into the lock) and using the very tips of your micrometer, measure the depth of the left side of the cut and then the depth of the right side of the cut. If they differ by about 0.003", then you have a likely culprit.

The second possibility I can think of is wear and tear on the bearing surfaces where the carriage rotates and slides through the supporting posts. It could have worn out of true round. The trick is to measure the diameter of the sliding rod of the carriage at several different angles, to see if it is the same diameter. If not, then it's worn oval, instead of being round. Again you will be looking for a difference of about 0.003".

If the shaft is round in cross-section, then it could be the bearing surfaces in the support posts that have worn oval. You will need to measure the internal diameter with your micrometer, to see if it has gone oval. You might get a clue by the feel of the carriage, did it rotate a bit freely and/or any "play" in it, or was it fairly nice and tight? If it was a bit loose, then it might be a sign of the bearing surfaces wearing oval.

Barbarian says alemite is a grease fitting possibly - does this mean a fitting that delivers the lubricant, or a thin metal "shell" that fits inside the bearing surfaces of the posts? It could well be this that is allowing too much "play" between the carriage and it's supporting posts.

Good luck finding the problem!