I had an UNPICKABLE lock idea...

[veecrawn]

I was playing with my lock last night (nothing sexual ) when I got an idea for an unpickable lock.

The key is exactly like the ones we use now. Basically, the pins are replaced by very small magnets. To open the lock, you have to insert a key and since the tips of the keys are precisely configured magnets, they push back the small pins, the "magnets" inside the lock by exactly the good force, positioning the pins-magnets exactly at the shear line.

Any other key will not fit. There are no springs and there are still 2 pins for each hole in the chamber (one on the bottom magnetized, one of the top to block if the key is pushed too high). It would be unpickable because there is no spring and it's impossible to know the exact strength of the magnet on the key needed.

What do you think? You are pros so perhaps you could discuss my item, and perhaps I could get it protected/copyrighted

[Crazy Gnome]

that sounds pretty clever but it might be too hard to make. im not too sure, im new to lock picking

[Olson Burry]

It would pick in the same way as a conventional pin-tumbler, bar the fact without the spring pushing down you would have to be more careful of an overlift.

Providing tension will make one pin-stack bind against the plug, yes? So it will be a case of finding the binding stack and moving it to sheer, just like normal locks. The spring will make little difference I'm afraid.

Magnets also degrade over time and if the magnetic key was placed in a bunch in your pocket that would affect the magnets as well. Even sharp impacts change magnetic properties within a material.

Good thoughts though.

[cryptocat]

keys not fitting is irrelevant - of course a medeco key won't work in an abloy. the only things a pick set has in common with my house key are that it's metal and goes in a lock. so someone's gonna shove a tool that doesn't look anything like a key into this lock too.

i'm not sure why you think this would be unpickable. you still have a row of pins that blocks the rotation of the plug unless correctly aligned. you're still pushing pins up to the shear line. you'd still have a binding pin. you'd get different feedback because magnetic force changes over distance much more than a spring does.

to simulate this i pulled the springs out of one of my cores - it was a bit trickier since i didn't get feedback from the driver, but i could feel when i was pushing up the binding pin and when the plug rotated a little. in short, i think your design won't work.

[cryptocat]

It would pick in the same way as a conventional pin-tumbler, bar the fact without the spring pushing down you would have to be more careful of an overlift.

Actually, if there's no spring and the manufacturer isn't careful, overlifts could be your friend. Push both the bottom and top pins up and out of the way, and you compress nothing but a magnetic field. Maybe that's a better way - just overlift all the pins and then let the bottom pins fall or be pushed back down by the repulsion of the top pins. Repulsion that you could feel.

[mr_chris79]

it might be unpickable in your world but have you forgotten about bumping?

[veecrawn]

UNBREAKABLE LOCK IDEA NUMBER 2

Okay...

Imagine each pin being a sucession of thousands of little lasers.

So laterally in the lock (perpendicular to the key) there are thousands of little lasers, for each position where a pin is.

So 5 x thousands of small lasers.

To open the lock needs the exact number of lasers to be interrupted. So only the original key will be able to cut the exact number of lasers for each of the five "pins". Once the correct key is open (all lasers for all pins are correctly set) the lock will automatically open, without turning the key.

Need your help again locksmith!

[cryptocat]

So you are proposing to stuff kind of a digital camera into the lock... this is going to resist failure due to water and dirt and whatever else, how?

Thousands of lasers is going to be very expensive. I don't see much of an advantage to having a big pile of emitters over one laser and some optics to spread it out. For that matter, I don't see the advantage of using a $1 laser over a $0.10 LED. Low-resolution (640x480) image sensors are pretty cheap, but not that cheap. You'll need to stick a bunch of them together into an array to image the whole key. Don't forget to account for key wear - keys get scratched and dirty in your pockets.

I assume you haven't heard about "sneakey" - remote photographic key duplication. And with a big honkin' lens like this, you could probably get a really good photo of your key from quite a distance. I wonder about maybe making a computer-controlled lcd key that I could shove in to try many key cuts very quickly?

Perhaps this achieves the goal of not being susceptible to surreptitious mechanical manipulation...

[jerrasis]

That laser Idea seems like it would rack up huge energy bills.

But I do kind of like the magnet idea, if things were placed properly you may not be able to reach the pins with a pick, seeing as how the key wouldn't even necessarily have to touch the pins(at least in my mind and the way I am envisioning this). But even with that I think Olson Burry is right about the degradation of the magnets.



Oh and without springs it seems like it would be fairly easy to bump open.

[unlisted]

Sorry guys, magnetic locks are nothing new, been used for decades in the marine industry for anti corrosion..

[jerrasis]

Sorry guys, magnetic locks are nothing new, been used for decades in the marine industry for anti corrosion..

makes sense. how exactly do they work??

[unlisted]

google is your friend

http://adstrategiesandproducts.com/Merc ... t_Code=KMP

[FarmerFreak]

Your second unpickable idea has basically already been used. "Marlock" uses a key that amounts to nothing more than holes to allow light to pass through it in a specific combination.

A quick internet search comes up with a good explanation. http://www.bombshock.com/m00fm00f/t ... ystem.html

[sevedus]

The magnet might have some legs. Does the marine lock isolate magnetic pins from magnetic bit lands, so that there is no mechanical contact? That would be wicked... With no pins protruding there'd be nothing to manipulate with a probe. Picking the lock by waving magnets along the keyway without any pin-motion to dectect would raise the bar. Can you figure out how to invoke the magnets in a lock mechanism that functions without split pins, so that torque testing won't give the proper magnet positions away?
LEDs, etc. are also wicked (non-contact) methods, but once we add electronics to a lock mechanism to make it "pickproof", we make it unsuitable for the "back-up mechanical" lock, which (to serve it's intended purpose) must function w/out current.

[sevedus]

UNPICKABLE LOCK IDEA 3

[Edited. --Legion303]

I saw a French lock a few years ago that had four rows of pins, two on top two on bottom. The key looked like an "H" is cross-section. Even the "right" key needed to be forced into the lock. The insertion force will probably be too large for functionality if you just keep adding more pins.
Picking's only about pins if the lock uses pins, so maybe you're "in the box" a bit with that. There's a thread here somewhere called "Janus" that shows a lock that could probably function securely without the split pins.
Keep at it.