Assessing vulnerabilities of a TL-15 safe

[internet tough guy]

Let's try this one again:

I just bought a TL-15 jewelry safe for my business, now I'd like to learn how to close off any remaining avenues of attack.

The information I am missing is: what are the easiest ways to get into the safe, as it now stands?

I did have the installers bolt it down into concrete. Two burly black dudes brought the safe in, and two burly black dudes could take it out. So my bases are covered there.

I have read stories about crooks who use a pickup truck to drag the safe along the floor. I don't think that is a concern in this location. But is that really enough force to shear the anchor bolts?

Somebody brought up the X-09 safe lock in the other thread. I have the S&G combination lock right now. What are the ways the combo lock can be attacked? I don't have enough information on the vulnerabilities of this lock to determine whether this is worth $1000+.

Several dealers have recommended the S&G electronic keypad locks, but in that case the attacker has direct access to the device's power supply and I/O lines. What keeps them from using a "glitch attack" to trick the microprocessor into opening the door? Pay TV pirates sell these devices for about $50 and they are readily available online.

What is the most common method for locksmiths to open the safe? My dealer mentioned drilling a small, deep hole and then plugging it when he's done. Is that just so that he can observe the position of the wheels, or is there something else he can do to pop it open? Would a glass relocker prevent this attack?

Do locksmiths have a special drill that will not wear out from several hours of drilling cobalt and hardened steel?

[Jaakko]

Two burly black dudes brought the safe in, and two burly black dudes could take it out. So my bases are covered there.

..until they find a third burly black dude

The methods you are asking for are deemed advanced and thus forbidden on this forums open area. You said "lets try this again", which suggests that you already asked this and it got locked.

This means that you don't understand the simple rules we live by here.

You don't need info on how to attack a safe, you just need a professional to tell you what you need in terms of a safe and a lock and means of preventing access to that safe.

I don't know what size bolts you have in your concrete/safe, but for example M10 (10 mm diameter) bolt needs about 15 kN of force to break lengthwise. Shearing needs muh less.

[cryptocat]

I just bought a TL-15 jewelry safe for my business, now I'd like to learn how to close off any remaining avenues of attack.

The information I am missing is: what are the easiest ways to get into the safe, as it now stands?

Talk to your local police or your insurance agent. Police around here just love to give security tips and the insurance companies love it when you do stuff to reduce the risk of theft.

Somebody brought up the X-09 safe lock in the other thread. I have the S&G combination lock right now. What are the ways the combo lock can be attacked? I don't have enough information on the vulnerabilities of this lock to determine whether this is worth $1000+.

The X-09 does have a good reputation. If memory serves, Marc Tobias said something like "If you do not have the combination, you will not open this lock." But that just means the lock isn't the weak point any more.

Perhaps the place you got your safe from can offer you a more comprehensive security solution? Explain to them what you're trying to protect, from whom, for how long. What happens if they get to it. etc. I'm sure lots of us here could do such an assessment, but this is not the place to get authoritative advice on protecting your livelihood.

[internet tough guy]

Two burly black dudes brought the safe in, and two burly black dudes could take it out. So my bases are covered there.

..until they find a third burly black dude

Adding a 3rd, or 4th, or 5th person isn't enough to shear the bolt. That's the point of bolting it down.

I don't know what size bolts you have in your concrete/safe, but for example M10 (10 mm diameter) bolt needs about 15 kN of force to break lengthwise. Shearing needs muh less.

Let's translate that into real world terms: what is the easiest way to dislodge the safe if it is held down with an M10 bolt?

You don't need info on how to attack a safe, you just need a professional to tell you what you need in terms of a safe and a lock and means of preventing access to that safe.

No, I need to form my own opinion based on the vulnerabilities of my setup.

I asked some very specific questions here so please keep the replies on topic. Thanks.

[TigerDragon]

If we keep the replies on topic, you won't see the responses. This would get moved to the advanced section if anyone replied to most of your questions. You have been informed at least twice now that the discussion of specific methods for entering safes is considered advanced materials and not for general public consumption.

[internet tough guy]

The X-09 does have a good reputation. If memory serves, Marc Tobias said something like "If you do not have the combination, you will not open this lock." But that just means the lock isn't the weak point any more.

Does that mean the lock is the weak point now?

If so, why and how?

Talk to your local police or your insurance agent.

I would rather ask people who have expertise in the area.

Perhaps the place you got your safe from can offer you a more comprehensive security solution?

I'm sure they would be willing to sell me all sorts of toys I don't really need, but that's not really the objective here.

[adrenalynn]

Hire a professional security consultant.

I'm not sure what part of "the answers to your questions are not welcome in the open forum" is unclear?

Did you not notice your previous thread got locked by a moderator?

[unlisted]

I really don't know how many times everyone is going to tell you this:

What you are asking for is Advanced information from this site. You do not meet the requirements for advanced access. You cannot talk about advanced materials outside of advanced.

Again, I will retype this for you to review. I suggest you at the very least read the first and third link provided. The second is optional, but will also provide you with a wealth of information.

I would suggest you review the site rules, which can be found at the following link: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=715

Some other info you should read: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10528

Advanced forum access information: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2474

[internet tough guy]

Hire a professional security consultant.

No thanks.

I'm not sure what part of "the answers to your questions are not welcome in the open forum" is unclear?

This is a little jewelry safe, not nuclear launch codes. Let's try to keep things in perspective here.

Did you not notice your previous thread got locked by a moderator?

Yes, because people tried to turn it into a flame war. Please don't do that.

So... what do I need to worry about the most here? The lock? The bolt? Breaking in from the other side?

[unlisted]

What you need to really worry about is forum etiquette and our forum rules. If you cannot abide by those, I don't think you really have any place here.

Sorry if this comes across a bit curt, but myself and others have tried to explain this to you countless times already.

Please, stop asking about this safe, unless you wish to be removed from this site.

The only reason I am not locking this is to see your response, and to hope you do not create another thread which will end up the same way as the last one.

Oh, and yes, I am a moderator as well, if you did not know this already.

[Jaakko]

I'm not sure what part of "the answers to your questions are not welcome in the open forum" is unclear?

This is a little jewelry safe, not nuclear launch codes. Let's try to keep things in perspective here.

What part of the forum rules you have trouble understanding?

A safe is a safe, will it be a jewelry safe or nuclear launch codes safe, it is still a safe, period.

Yes, because people tried to turn it into a flame war. Please don't do that.

You have been informed multiple times of the forum rules and it is YOU who is stirring up the soup in here.

what do I need to worry about the most here?

Getting banned. (again I guess)

About that bolt: You only need enough force to overcome its physical strength, it is just a matter of leverage

[unlisted]

Just since I want you to see we are a good bunch here, check this link out for information on your bolt strength and weaknesses.

http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/22.html

[FarmerFreak]

I kinda feel bad for making some suggestions in the other thread. Safes isn't even my strong point, I was only trying to get some general information out there. But I can see that it didn't help.

IMHO this thread should probably be locked too.

[mcm757207]

If your safe is rated to TL-15, you can rest assured it is indeed a high quality safe. You are not going to get answers on how to beat it here, but maybe I can help a little.

It's bolted down, so that's a great start. Not all S&G mechanical locks are poor locks, they do make some nice Group1 locks. You might consider those locks a cheaper and fairly secure alternative to the expensive X-09 lock.

Your security system is very important here. A safe of that quality would likely take a while to get into, so you need a quick response. Make sure you have a cellular backup- I would spend more money on that than the safe lock. Security cameras, hidden as well as viable, are also probably a good idea if you have the money and are that concerned about it. Internal theft is more of an issue than external, and that will help.

Next, consider modifying the safe labels. When an attacker goes after a safe, he needs to know exactly what kind of safe he is going after. Something as simple as removing/covering up the manufacturer's name, model numbers, and serial numbers could act as a deterrent. Many times things such as the shapes of the hinges can be used to identify a safe. Maybe consider concealing them?

Next, make sure the combination is a good one. The best combination is one that is completely random. Obviously no birthdays, phone numbers, etc. Don't write it down anywhere, and tell as few people as possible. Change it often.

Hope that helps.

[internet tough guy]

Just since I want you to see we are a good bunch here, check this link out for information on your bolt strength and weaknesses.

http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/22.html

From a practical standpoint, what does this mean?

If I have an M10 bolt securing a 2000lb safe, what are the most likely attack vectors?

Can they tear it out of the floor with a minivan? An SUV? A pickup truck? Or are they going to need more power than that?