Cutting blanks with depth keys

[sharpfire]

I just purchased a manual key cutting maching and also depth and spacing keys. I have no problems duplicating a key from another one but when I try to use depth and space keys to create a duplicate key, the key gets a little jagged and sometimes does not work. It seems like I am not cutting it properly. Is there a special technique used when cutting a blank from depth keys? Do you cut shallow to deep or deep to shallow? Any information would be great. Thanks in advance.

[lunchb0x]

From what I rememeber cut from shallow to deep, also what cutter do you have? does the cutter cut on an angle on both sides like this \/ or is it like |/ if its like the second it can be hard to get the ramps on the key right.

[yono]

i observed you have the experience in cutting keys already, and your problem occur only when you"re using (basing) your cut on your depth key set and spaced key. in my own way, when this occur.. i do cut a sample key, using this "depth key in question" and recheck it with a caliper. sometimes, even these keys are factory manufactured, and checked, there
are very small defects which was overlook during mass production. also check the tightness and firmness of your duplicating machine vise when it holds the key, when you are using the spacer. i do hope this help. regards.

[sharpfire]

Lunchb0x- My cutter is a Simplex6210MK II. The cutter is shaped like |/. If this is causing problems is it possible to chage this blade with the other style blade that works better? If i do change the cutting wheel do i need to also change the "copy dog" since it is also shaped the same way?

yono- I do use a digital caiper to get the cut depths. Do you also use it to check the spacing between the cuts. If so, what is the easiest way to do this.

Thank you both for your fast responses.

[sharpfire]

Just another question about the technique used. When you are using the depth keys to cut the blank do you start at the "tooth" on the left and go all the way down and back up to the tip of the next "tooth"? It seems like my problem is in the area between the depths where they come up and meet.

[TigerDragon]

If you change your cutting wheel, you need to change the guide that matches it. Otherwise, your alignment will be off, and you won't be cutting where you think you are.

Also, if needed, check calibration after each wheel/guide change before cutting customer keys.

[thelockpickkid]

Ok, don't change your cutting wheel yet, I read an article in NDE magazine by Zeke, here is what I do, and I make great keys, everytime, the first time, without wasting blanks. say you are cutting a key, the depths are:53465, cut all positiones on your key to 3 cuts first, then what I would do is make my 5 cuts in positions number 1 and 5, then make your other cuts according to the proper depth, just take your highest cut first on all positions, this gets your peaks set up (spacing) works great. Also what I have noticed, when making all your same cuts, do it manually, not automatically, seems to make a difference on my machine.

[thelockpickkid]

Can't find the edit button, just to clarify: make all your SHALLOW cuts first!

[sharpfire]

thelockpickid- Thanks for the information. I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Basically what you do is cut the whole key down to the shallowest cut, which in your example was a 3. After this do you cut any depths that are the same or do you always cut the end positions? Im assuming you always cut both ends even if the cut depths aren't the same. Is this correct? Then after this you finish by cutting the three middle cuts starting with the shallowest depth. In this case you wouldnt have to worry about the depth of 3 since you already cut the whole key to depths of 3 so you would then cut the depth of 4 and then the depth of 6. Thanks again for all the information. I have been trying to perfect this skill for a long time.

[thelockpickkid]

Just to make it easier to explain, if the shallowest cut on your key is a 3, just make all cuts a 3 then proceed to cut the other cuts as normal, what I was saying is that if after you make all cuts 3's, if you have two other cuts that are the same, like maybe a 5, do those together in the appropriate spots, that way you only have to clamp that depth key once instead of twice. When code cutting a key always take the shallowest cut and cut that depth for all positions, then progress the other cut depths in the appropriate spots.

[Raymond]

The above suggestions are rock-solid good technique. Doing all the same number cuts also saves time by not changing the depth key each cut. If you are having the most difficulty only on the ramps closest to the bow, try cutting the ramp starting at the bottom of the cut and moving backwards. Another, more difficult and time consuming method is to turn the blank being cut around and finish off the rough ramps with the angled side of the cutter blade. The technique I use most often is to use a triangular file with one polished corner to clean up the ramps. This is just faster than messing around with the cutter.

[sharpfire]

Thanks for all the suggestions that everyone contributed. I just ordered some more blank keys so I can try these techniques.

[WOT]

Cutting with depth keys is quite difficult and getting a smooth operating key usually requires finishing with a file.

Many duplicators use a cutter shaped like |/ to allow duplication of a key with a cut very close to the shoulder. When you have a deep cut next to a shallow cut, there is no "slope" to follow to create the angle between the two cuts.

Furthermore, in duplication, the guiding error is limited to one time error, but when you change the depth keys multiple times, the offset error adds up. If it was 0.01" off every time, you'll have 0.01+0.01+n and might end up with a key with enough spacing error to not work.

This is especially critical for lock system with narrow root depth as the slightest spacing error would cause the pins to climb up the side of steeples.

Don't use the key guide, especially on a cheap machine like 025 or 045. Use the stylus and cutter to align it.

[thelockpickkid]

That is a very good point, taking depth keys in and out, your bound to end up with some extra space, no way to clamp a key the same way twice.

[Raymond]

Howdy folks,

I do not agree with everything WOT stated in his reply. I have used depth keys for 45 years and have not had near the sizeable problem he thinks will happen. They are not difficult to use. The spacing does not move and increase out of standard. If there is an offset error it does not compound. If the depth keys are accurately cut to begin with they should remain valid for a long time. I do recommend making them from factory blanks or at least nickle-silver so the key machine cutter guide won't scrape them down quickly.

I have a Framon, an HPC, an ITL, and a Fitmaster but leave them in the shop. I carry several sets of depth keys. (I did use the Framon to make the depth keys.)

My only duplicater for many, many years had a flat sided milling cutter. It was very sharp at the point and I learned to make keys without the up ramps needing filing every time. This can be done.

Many of the problems he alludes to can be easily compensated for if you pay attention and are aware of the potential of a problem.

For example: set the depth keys in the vise first using the bottom shoulder. Adjust the blank location in the vise by touching against the cutter, not the guage. Do not actually cut the top shoulder back during any cut, cut only the cuts required. This allows you to change quickly from one depth key to another without messing up the spacing or having to re-guage. And yes, if the forward ramps are a little rough, clean them up with a triangular file. Locksmithing has always been a technical craft. Make it work instead of fussing about why you can't do it.

I have been glad to use the depth keys to adjust spacing for a lock that is worn or when rekeying a non-standard lock with wierd spacing.

I have made keys for Assa and Sargent without problems. These are usually difficult brands due to the pin structure, tight tolerances, and narrow flats.

So, to wrap this up, if you cannot afford a fancy code cutter, don't worry about it. Just take care of business. "Git er done."