Thoughts on delayed egress system?

[WOT]

Some buildings utilize delayed egress device. They're a panic bar type exit where pushing on the door immediately sets off the alarm, but there is a delay as much as 30 seconds before the door can be opened.

It gives time for security personnel to get to the door before someone makes out with their loot, but at the expense of safety. For example, if something catches on fire or an armed robber enters from main entrance, it's going to hold people inside hostage for 30 seconds, which is life or death difference.

For safety reasons, it is prohibited by code.
Even where it is allowed by code, do you feel the property security outweighs the hindered evacuation?

[Jaakko]

Property is most probably always insured and can be bought new, but human lifes not. I would not allow that sort of system anywhere.

[Wizer]

...and 30 seconds for a guard to get to the door is not always enough, so this don´t feel too secure.

[Schuyler]

If you are going to have a panic bar type exit, it needs to just friggin' open. If you need a facility to be securely locked from both the inside and outside, don't bother with a panic mechanism.

[LocksmithArmy]

wow panic bars are for emergancy exits not stopping burgalers

[mcm757207]

I guess I'll play devil's advocate here.

First of all delayed egress is only allowed by code (at least around here) in very specific instances where the fire marshal gives his OK. Whether the delay is 10 seconds, 15 seconds, or more, it really doesn't make a huge difference in a fire situation. Fire alarms will be going off, people will be screaming, and general chaos and havoc will be going on well before there are enough gases to kill someone sitting for 15 seconds waiting for a door to open.

History has shown us that the killers in fires are doors that open the wrong way, locked doors, not knowing where the exits are, etc.

In a modern building, exits are clearly marked, all exterior doors open out (per code), and alarms are installed. In many situations delayed egress panic devices are even integrated into the fire alarm system to be automatically disabled in the event of a fire.

The advantage? They act as a significant deterrent to crime. Keeping criminals off of my property by installing countermeasures like this is not only a financial advantage but also keeps them away from my law-abiding customers.

Should they be used everywhere? I wouldn't think so. There is definitely a place for them though.

[sfi72]

I agree with mcm on this one, as long as the door is wired into the fire system, i don't think its a problem. This may cause problems when it comes to crime because the criminal may know that all he has to do is pull a fire alarm to disable the delay. However, most criminals wouldn't want to attract attention to themselves in this manner. There may be some instances where these systems would be very useful, and some where it wouldn't. This is the case for most things however so it really depends on the individual situations.

[Schuyler]

delayed egress panic devices are even integrated into the fire alarm system to be automatically disabled in the event of a fire.

If that is the case, then I'm slightly more tolerant of them. However, if someone is delayed by a door not opening during a fire, or other emergency (gunman, gas leak, etc.) I would imagine a more common reaction than waiting calmly for the door to open, would be to freak out because the door with the panic bar didn't open and you need to get out now. The next step would be to either seek another exit, or attempt to force the door, potentially damaging the mechanism that will open it 30 seconds from now.

[straightpick]

Good post mcm. Something else to keep in mind. These delayed exits are almost always in areas where the general public and shoppers are NOT supposed to be. Areas like stock rooms, shipping areas, etc. All the employees are made aware of method of operation of these exits so there would be no general panic ensuing as the public should not be in these areas.

[LocksmithArmy]

I would have to agree with Schuyler, if it turned the delay off for fire emergencies that would be better.
but that doesnt help anyone in a hostage situation or somthing.

If the doors are in the back where there is no general public than the people in the back can not run for help in a hostage situation(until 30 seconts or so) as I am sure the bad guy will have the front door covered.

I'd still have to say these doors are a bad idea.

[mcm757207]

I'm sorry, but using active shooters or hostage situations as examples of why these are a bad idea is a little ridiculous. Considering the countless thousands of applications for delayed egress devices and the near 0 statistical probability of them having an impact on the safety of someone in one of those situations it's really a non issue. That's like me arguing against chairs because someone might trip over one when running away from a gun-wielding madman.

Gun-wielding madman situation in a store or work place? The targets are likely going to be employees. Employees that have keys to disarm the panic device if absolutely necessary. If a store is really concerned about it they would make sure employees had those keys and were trained about workplace violence (so they knew when to hunker down and when to leave, and how to disarm panic devices if really necessary).

Chances of someone loading a shopping cart of $5000 in iPhones and jumping into a truck in the alley and taking off? That's a far greater risk, and that's why delayed egress panic devices are used.

[Schuyler]

If we are now at the point of talking about using keys to disarm the device, why not just use a keyed exit in the first place?

I mean, we have heard over and over again that these are used in limited situations where you would not see the general public anyway. If everyone is versed on how they work, why not just give everyone a key on a lanyard to exit that door? It would take less than 30 seconds, and a thief wouldn't be able to get out the door no matter how long they waited in front of it.

Unless the theft was internal, of course, but we've already covered that employees are able to disarm the system to begin with, so pretty even ground on that possibility.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

If we are now at the point of talking about using keys to disarm the device, why not just use a keyed exit in the first <censored> place?

That would violate the fire code if the door was indeed a fire exit. You need one motion egress without prior knowledge of operating a device, keyed exit goes against both of those.

It would take less than 30 seconds, and a thief wouldn't be able to get out the door no matter how long they waited in front of it.

It is delayed egress, not approved egress (I made that term up, don't go Googling it). The point isn't to contain or trap a thief - that's what a mantrap is for.

[Schuyler]

I'm a bit shocked that I had written something there that had needed to be censored by the site...definitely wasn't the big one. That's a first for me.

Anyhow, if this is aimed to be a middle ground when you are required by law to have a fire exit, I can, again, better understand it's purpose. Definitely good points & a good first post as well. Welcome to LP101.

[raimundo]

schuyler got censord na na na na nana