Is it legal for companies to continue to lie to consumers?

[haykuro]

Hello, I'm a new user around these parts, and rather new to lock picking.

As of a few months ago, I started out making bump keys for a Master lock I had lying around. I then moved on to making my own picks, and just recently purchased some "professional" ones.

In my travels so far, I've picked (not bumped) the following:

Master Lock 4-pins ("4-pin cylinder helps prevent picking")

Master Lock 4-pins also (again quoted as saying it prevents picking.)

After doing some researching, I've learned that word on the street tells the weaknesses of Master locks. They are indeed the easiest locks to pick. I wanted a challenge, but not something impossible.

I set out to my local Home Depot and bought this:
Defiant 5-pins ("Locks are pick, kick, pry, saw & drill resistant")

I also noted that the Defiant lock stated it "meets or exceeds ANSI Grade 3 Standards for residential use."

So what we have are three different locks, all claiming they are pick resistant and are, in reality, VERY easy to pick.

I've only just started and am shocked at how simple it was.

Who is testing these locks to prove they are "pick resistant" and what standard are they meeting when a novice picker can set out and pick these locks with some raking (it took me a total of 20 seconds raking, and [after I learned the lock a bit more] a total of 17 seconds SPP).

So my questions are:
- Is it legal to blatantly LIE to consumers that your lock is pick resistant?
- How are these locks being tested to even gain such a claim?
- What dictates the ANSI grade standards as a standard if all locks in that range are, indeed, pickable?

[aussielocky]

The important word here is ' resistant '

A bank vault door made of styrofoam is resistant to force too, just not very much

Resistant is basically meaningless, likewise any qualified statement such as virtually pickproof, again it is meaningless.

[haykuro]

The important word here is ' resistant '

A bank vault door made of styrofoam is resistant to force too, just not very much

Resistant is basically meaningless, likewise any qualified statement such as virtually pickproof, again it is meaningless.

Haha, that's a very good point. I didn't look at it like that.

So I guess this can be called another victory for big business, and some good lawyers

Nevertheless thanks aussielocky for clearing up the "resistant" myth for me, but do you think you can shine some more light on the whole ANSI grades and stuff?

Doing some further research I learned that the lower the grade, the better. (i.e. ANSI Grade 1 is highest security [government], Grade 2 is business, and Grade 3 is residential.)

But what exactly are the differences in grades?

I'd suppose security features such as security pins and the likes appear more in Grade 2, and then Grade 1 consists of electronic-based locks?

[unlisted]

It has nothing to do with the type of lock, it has to do with the durability, strength, etc of the lock. See below:

ANSI Grading System for Locksets & Deadbolts

To help identify the quality and durability of locksets and deadbolts, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) — has established three grades or standards for door locks. Each product must pass a series of operational and security tests.


Grade 1
Meets commercial building requirements
Provides the best residential security available

Knobs - Must Withstand
- 800,000 cycles
- 6 door strikes
- 360 pound weight test

Deadbolts - Must Withstand
- 250,000 cycles
- 10 door strikes (hammer test)

Grade 2
Meets light commercial and exceeds residential building requirements
Exceeds standard residential security requirements

Knobs - Must Withstand
- 400,000 cycles
- 4 door strikes
- 250 pound weight test

Deadbolts - Must Withstand
- 150,000 cycles
- 5 door strikes (hammer test)

Grade 3
Meets residential building requirements only
Provides minimal residential security

Knobs - Must Withstand
- 200,000 cycles
- 2 door strikes
- 150 pound weight test

Deadbolts - Must Withstand
- 100,000 cycles
- 2 door strikes (hammer test)

(cut and pasted from a website years ago, Saved as txt file on my computer.)

[unlisted]

And if you really think about it, (which I can tell you have not) a lock is only as secure as that plate glass window next to it, or the hollow core door it is attached to...

In other words, locks are only meant to keep honest people honest. If someone wants in, they will get in, normally another method than picking. Much easier kicking in a door than trying to learn a skill like lockpicking (when in context with criminals).

[raimundo]

I think I remember that there was a lawsuit against the Keil lock company long ago about a claim of 'pickproof' and that was when resistant got its current meaning in locksmithing

Yes it is legal to lie directly or to lie with suggestion which is what 'resistant' means.
its also legal for police to lie about why they stopped you, that is called pretexting or L.E. by lying, a form of harrassment that hopes to make criminals out of unsuspecting citizens.
It is legal for politicians to lie for your vote, then never tell you the truth once they are elected,
Almost anyone in authority is likely to lie to you, its part of the authoritarian personalityt to treat everyone like a child and keep them in the dark, on a diet of manure.
You are just a mushroom to them
get used to it. there is an ideal, the bill of rights, the constitution, but this is never honored except in the breach when you can get a judge to listen, and that is not easy, they have layers of filter to keep that from happening.

[haykuro]

Very interesting replies, and thank you unlisted for answering my questions.

In the case of security it is true that there is ALWAYS an alternate path, but it would be fallacious to believe that because of that the amount of security that exists (or is believed to exist) shouldn't be the highest possible. For example, a person may not want to make a very "noisy" entrance if they are breaking in to your home, so picking a lock would be the safest/quickest method. If you had installed a high security lock (electronic, or otherwise more difficult than a residential deadbolt), it would help prevent invasion.

Or in the case of computer security, you wouldn't install Norton antivirus to protect against viruses because you know it's crap, you'd install something like Kaspersky or NOD to ensure you have the MOST protection. It doesn't mean your 100% protected against viruses/trojans, there is ALWAYS another way in (0day browser vulnerabilities, etc), but you would at least not just leave the front door open.

I think the concept of keeping the honest people honest is only true to a certain extent. An honest person wouldn't break into your home, a criminal will. If you're walking through a community, and you notice someone's door is open you don't just step in. You, as a truly honest person, understand that you have no right being in that person's home.

Just my two cents.

[yng_pick]

"I think the concept of keeping the honest people honest is only true to a certain extent. An honest person wouldn't break into your home, a criminal will. If you're walking through a community, and you notice someone's door is open you don't just step in. You, as a truly honest person, understand that you have no right being in that person's home."

I have always agree with this- that an honest person wouldn't break in one way or the other.

The way I like to look at it, is that out of a set amount of people who might break into your house, X amount would only do so if you left the door unlocked. So by putting on a junk lock, you are eliminating that set of people. The next set might kick in, break a window, etc. By reinforcing the door and taking care of the window (hurricane glass, bars,etc) you eliminate them. The next set might be some punk who knows how easy it is to get into common locks, so you take measures to prevent this.

This continues up to the pros who might be able to get past a real nice security set up, but the concern there should exist mainly if you see yourself as a potential interest to these people (storing million dollar paintings and whatnot).

Anyways, I never agreed with calling lazy criminals honest.

[unlisted]

If you're walking through a community, and you notice someone's door is open you don't just step in. You, as a truly honest person, understand that you have no right being in that person's home.

Actually, I would walk right in, but thats due to my field of work..

[haykuro]

Actually, I would walk right in, but thats due to my field of work..

Now I'm inclined to ask, what exactly is your field of work? Unless, of course, you work in some sort of secret society of spies and are not allowed to explain. In which case just make it blatantly obvious by saying "I can't speak about that."

[unlisted]

Public Safety (no, not security)

[fgarci03]

Probably no one looks into this thread anymore. But here's my 2cents anyway!

I think WE CAN do something about big companies getting rich by lying to the consumers with the semantics of pickproof and pickresistant.

We can show them it's not what they say. Worse, we can show EVERYONE it's not what they say!
Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean start picking and showing people how to do it.

But imagine this. Every company has a facebook page. How about taking their "Highest Security full-proof-best-top-end Pick Resistant lock" and make a video on youtube of a picking session that ends with their pick resistant lock being easily picked? What if we show that their semantics is really a bunch of crap? What if we even recomend another lock with similar or better features for a lower price?

And post that video on their facebook page. Or forum, or whatever they use to promote their products online...


What are they going to do? Sue us? For what? For being able to do what hey claim that can't be done? Ohhhh... Yeah, right. Pick resistant, not pick proof. We've done nothing they claim that can't be done!

Not trying to get to anyone, but I find that a claim of a pick resistant lock must be followed with an explanation. It may be legal but it's not ethical to do otherwise, and then arguing semanthics with whoever got a problem with the product (and this goes for everything in live i believe)

Again, just my 2cents!
Be safe!

[MacGyver101]

[...] post that video on their facebook page. Or forum, or whatever they use to promote their products online... What are they going to do? Sue us? For what?

At minimum, they'll just delete the post from their Facebook page.

In the case of MMF Industries, they actually filed a takedown notice with YouTube: Oldfast posted a video on his YouTube feed last January, showing how easy it was to pick the lock on one of their cash bags... and MMF filed a notice with YouTube, claiming that it was a Trademark violation.

[fgarci03]

and MMF filed a notice with YouTube, claiming that it was a Trademark violation.

Exactly! That means Oldfast really got to them.
And doing something like that is bad publicity. It proves my point!

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to begin something with this. Nor trying to promote that kind of "war". I'm just saing that in fact, we can do something. Even by telling our family and friends what pick resistant means. It's better to do little than none at all.

And if all of us can contribute to make the world a little bit safer (by exposing the threats to our loved ones, and help them protect their belongings), won't it be worth it?

As raimundo said

(...)there is an ideal, the bill of rights, the constitution, but this is never honored except(...)

I don't see the world that dark, but I must say that I agree with him. But in my point of view, we can still do something. As little as it is, it's still something. And no one can ever take that away from us.

And again, I mean this to every aspects of our live

Be safe!

[Josh66]

"4-pin cylinder helps prevent picking"

I always thought that should be followed by and asterisk.

4-pin cylinder helps prevent picking*

*When compared to a 3-pin cylinder. lol