5 lever (mortice) locks

[fortress]

Hi, I've just found this great site, and just joined. I tried posting a few of questions on another site, but didn't get a clear answer. Hopefully on this site there's loads of experts! Here goes then:

Begin post
We've just moved into a new house. I think I read somewhere that for a door that can be opened from either side, the number of levers has to be odd.

Looking at a key, I can't see the profiles for 5 levers, only 4? Three to one side, then a common one in the middle, then 3 to the other side which are the same as the first ones but in reversed order.
So the heights/lengths of the profile go: 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 - see what I mean? Surely that's only 4 unique cutouts?

Question 2: Suppose some cutouts are the same length as their neighbours, so you get like 1 2 2 4 2 2 1, or even 1 222 1 - surely that's insecure?

Question 3: One of our keys goes 1 2 333 2 1 yet on the face of the lock on the edge of the door it says "5 Levers". Just how many levers does this one have then? And with 3 adjacent levers/cutouts all the same, surely this one is very insecure?
End post

[unlisted]

Do you have any photos of the keys you can post for us?

I suspect your not describing your keys the right way, and that will help us assist you. Oh, photos of the locks as well if possible. (for brand.type)

[mhole]

The security of a 5 lever lock is provided by the number of levers, not the number of cuts on the key. If it says '5 levers' it has 5 levers.

Most 5 lever locks have a key with 7 different bittings, the middle 3 are always used, and the 2 on either end are used depending on which side the key is inserted from.

Some keys have 9 cuts, and only the centre cut is used from both sides, but these are less common. Securefasts older BS lock, and the Chubb 3g110 are example of keys with 9 cuts.

Having repeated lever heights isn't significantly less secure, and is very common.

[fortress]

Thanks very much Moderator. I don't have any photos, sorry. The lock is an ERA, with a bronze key whose handle is kind of hexagon shaped. Alongside the hole there's a letter F. And yes, I'm sure I'm not describing it the right way!

And many thanks to mhole too. Do I understand you right: the three centre are always used and the mirror-matching outer pair are used depending which side - so 5 of the 7 levers are actually used? No I must have that wrong - surely the key would need to lift all 7 regardless of which side.

My concern is about having ADJACENT lever heights repeated, which is what I was trying to describe with 12221. In fact the key concerned maybe does have 7 bittings (call it 1322231), so the centre three are all the same height. Is that insecure?

[unlisted]

Take some photos?

[Rickthepick]

lever no's 3 and 5 are always the same on a double sided 5 lever lock.... likewise levers 1&3 in a 3 lever
A very important thing to note when picking/decoding i might add

some keys have an extra cut on the end to interact with the talon of the bolt, some use a curtain wheel driven by the blade of the key.

[fortress]

Thanks Rick. I took the bull by the horns and opened the 5-lever ERA lock. Now I half understand: the 7 bittings on the key relate to the 5 levers plus a curtain disk (I'm guessing that's what it is) relating to the other 2 bittings.
But is there nobody prepared to give an opinion on the security of a lock which has 3 adjacent levers (numbers 3 4 & 5) all the same height? Is it no less secure than a lock with 5 levers all different (excepting that 3 and 5 must be the same) ???

[Rickthepick]

it may be easier to open with a jiggler key

however picking may not as be as straight forward as you think due to antipick notches in levers.

and obviously any other key will not work

Some of the Era profits have 5 high lift levers

[fortress]

I don't have a problem opening any of the locks, I have the keys! They are all Era Fortress, conforming to BS3621, installed by the builder. I replaced the 2 rear door locks because there was evidence of a nearby hoodie (we know who he is) having frequently been hanging around the back of the house before we moved in - hundreds of fag ends, and both the rear doors were often a bit baulky to lock and unlock.

Now I'm simply trying to find out if I should replace the front door 5 lever lock, because levers 3, 4 and 5 are all the same height - in other words the the central 3 bittings of the key are the same height. Any opinions?

[Rickthepick]

If that hoodie can pick an era fortress without tools il give him a job...

Dont worry about it, if anyones going to break in, its with a big right foot or with a crowbar

[Rickthepick]

one more question?... does this hoodie carry an endoscope round with him and have an interest in locks....

[mhole]

+1. There are no real world security implications with the keys you describe.

[fortress]

Hey listen you guys, thanks very much. It's clear there's no need to change the front door lock. In my ignorance, seeing only one large bittance in the centre, I was bothered that it was actually a 3 lever lock. Now I know it is a 5 lever with numbers 3, 4 & 5 all the same height.

As I said, both the rear door locks were baulky, so we reckoned the hoodie had been trying, lord knows what with, to get them unlocked. What I didn't tell you is that one of the locks is a europrofile patio door lock. Seemed too much of a coincidence that two different types of lock should both be troublesome, so we changed both. And both now operate smoothly as they ought.

Thanks again you guys.

[79commando]

Personally I'd change the lock as it's an ERA so will probably fail within a year or two. Sadly they have gone pretty low on quality over the last few years. So much so that a lot of locksmiths will no longer fit them.

[mhole]

Era Mortice locks are not machined and QC'ed to the same standard as some other makes, but they are still perfectly reliable and functional if properly installed and QC'ed by the installer.

There has been any annoying bug with the Fortress range for a while, which can cause it to jam up when opening, but if you check the lock when you install it, and test from both sides, this can be resolved by carefully deburring the levers, and introducing a tiny bevel at the start of the gates.

I've often cursed Era whilst on site, because they are guilty of cutting corners with materials and QC, *but* these flaws are all things which are a PITA for the installer, not the end user. I've personally fitted hundreds of fortress deadlocks and sashlocks, and even more of their BS:3621 nightlatches, and had hardly any callbacks, once you suss the potential issues and preempt them.