wireless sensor for Europrofile lock ?

[theomeier]

I am looking for a wireless battery operated device/contraption which sensors the status (open/closed) of an Europrofile key knob cylinder lock.

The German company Abus markets a wireless security system called Abus Secvest 2way.
Key cylinders with a knob on the inside of the door (so called knob cylinders) can be equiped with a wireless, battery powered
sensor which arms/disarms the system when the knob is turned. Abus calls this device a radio cylinder.
(Secvest Key FU5900: http://www.abus-sc.co.uk/silver.econten ... t-Key-2WAY)
From what I heard the device is manufatured by an UK or Israel company, which I have not been able to identfy.


I am looking for a simular device/contraption which has/can be equiped with sensors which feature open protocols (e.g. Z-Wave,
ZigBee) and can be employed in the same/simular fashion.

The features of the solution I seek are as follows:
- documented wireless signaling via open protocol (e.g. Z-Wave , ZigBee)
- encryption of signaling possible
- battery operated
- can be attached to Europrofile key cylinder or knob cylinder

What I think, will NOT work is the following:
- electronic locks with external power supply or propieretory, closed protocols



Your advice is appreciated.

[mh]

If you want something open, you might need to design it yourself, see viewforum.php?f=25

However, this particular setup I find a bit strange - I would not want to disarm my alarm system with the same key - it's meant to be a backup layer if the lock's security fails for whatever reason.

If you go for a wireless encrypted protocol anyway, why not just use a keyfob to arm/disarm the system?

Cheers
mh

[theomeier]

If you want something open, you might need to design it yourself, see viewforum.php?f=25

However, this particular setup I find a bit strange - I would not want to disarm my alarm system with the same key - it's meant to be a backup layer if the lock's security fails for whatever reason.

If you go for a wireless encrypted protocol anyway, why not just use a keyfob to arm/disarm the system?

Cheers
mh

Strange ways of unlocking door and disarming alarm system:
I know that there are more effective ands safer way of managing an alarm system (key coding, keyfob, remote control..), but ease of use (just locking/unlocking the door as usual while arming/disarming) and the infrastructure provided (door, lock housing) is dictating my considerations.

Design myself:
I am not an electronics or lock expert. However if it was to source components and elements, I could possible find someone to do the soldering.

[stratmando]

I like to think the Alarm System is the Redundancy for the Lock. With the device shown, if someone picks the lock, they also disarm the alarm system.
Although it is a new product, the Idea is old.
It can be done several ways, A plunger switch that the dead bolt operates, Most Security systems have the ability to be Armed/Disarmed by a dry contact, an end of line resistor can be used to increase security.
A plunger switch can also be used to indicate the Deadbolt is secure.
I like to use 2 recessed magnetic contacts on High Security Systems. One with a magnet to show that the door is opened or closed, another one close, but not so close it sees the first magnet, and this has no magnet at all. It would be programmed as a 24 Hour Zone. This way if some one though to use a Large Magnet to Bypass the entry contact, It would trigger an alarm by its magnetic field.
Marketing on the listed Item is very good, an some will feel this is State of the Art?

[theomeier]

I found something that could solve my requirements:

It is motor/wireless sensor which can be attached to lock cylinder (with a key inserted) on the inside of the door.
The motor turns the bolt and the sensor activates the the mechanism via remote control and transmits the status of the lock.

The device is distributed via Abus and ELV, is called HomeTec or KeyMatic and operates via the FS20 or BidCoS (HomeMatic) protocol on 868 Mhz frequency.

[mh]

I think the ABUS version does not use the ELV-proprietary BidCoS, but Keeloq.

Would BiCoS fulfill your requirements?

Cheers
mh

[theomeier]

I think the ABUS version does not use the ELV-proprietary BidCoS, but Keeloq.

Would BiCoS fulfill your requirements?

Cheers
mh

To recall my requirement: I want to control a wireless alarm centre Abus Secvest 2way via a sensor that is connected to a key cylinder.

Abus and ELV offer a motor driven cylinder driver/ sensor combination that works with different protocols (FS20: ELV Keymatic CAC, ELV Kematic, Abus Hoemtec) and BiCoS: Keymatic HM)

The Keymatic device has an LED indicates the status of the lock and with is socketed. One could interface this LED possibly with an universal wireless interface module called Secvest 2Way Wireless Universal Module (FU8210), which then would talk wirelessly to the alarm centre.

On the other hand there is an interface called ELV KeyMatic®-Schaltaktor KM300 SB (I am not sure but I thing this device just speaks to the FS20 enabled versions of the Keymatic) which possibly could be trained to understand the wireless signaling of the Keymatic device. The Schaltaktor then could be wired to the alarm centre.

There are a lot of ifs and I wish I had gone for the HomeMatic solution in the first place, which delivers all the components guaranteed to interact with each other.

[stratmando]

I want to verify what you want exactly?
You want the keyfob to Unlock the cylinder/and/or disarm the system.
You want feedback from the deadbolt showing open or closed condition
You do not want the RF Grabbed or Duplicated?
What do you currently have to work with?
Thanks. I can do it with DSC or Honeywell equipment.
I take it you are in Europe?
Thanks, Good Luck and Take Care

[mh]

I wish I had gone for the HomeMatic solution in the first place, which delivers all the components guaranteed to interact with each other.

I missed the point that you want to actually control an ABUS SecVest alarm system - i.e. use its proprietary wireless protocol for arming/disarming.

But why would you then not want to use the original integrated ABUS euro profile lock / alarm controller?
That part is now quite unclear to me.

Cheers
mh

[theomeier]

Tx for your interest. I am learning as I procede and as I receive your feedback.

I want to verify what you want exactly?
You want the keyfob to Unlock the cylinder/and/or disarm the system.

I want the keyfob or a key cylinder to unlock/lock the door and to signal this process or the status of the door (bolt unangaged/engaged) wirelessly to another device.
I do NOT want use a remote control to effect the opening/closing and arming/disarming, but I want the turn of the key to be the issuing instrument.

You want feedback from the deadbolt showing open or closed condition

In order to arm/disarm the system I do not need the status information, but rather the information of the lock beeing opened or closed (the cylinder beeing turned lockwise/counterclockwise)

You do not want the RF Grabbed or Duplicated?

That depends on how the "radio cylinder" works.
There is a motor (ELV KeyMatic HQ+) that can be attached to operate and turn an existing cylinder and which can be managed through a remote control. This device usually can be operated through a remote control, but since the cylinder is accessable a key can be used as well. To what I understand this device (RX868SH-JL; 868Mhz, KeeLoq) receives signaling (from the remote) but does not wirelessly sends any signal. The status of the lock however is displayed and can be red via an auxiliary port which is supposed to be used for an external LED indicator. This port thus has been used to add an extra remote control or actuator to the device to sent signals about the lock wirelessly. A matching receiver with e.g. a relay switch could then be used to engage the alarm system.

Alternatively there is the KeyMatic HM (which uses different protocols BidCoS). If this device only receives, but also sents signals is still unknown to me. I have requested the information from the manufacturer http://www.eq-3.de.

What do you currently have to work with?

Abus SecVest 2Way Alarm Centre (FU8000) and a Radio Nob Cylinder (SecVest Key FU5993) on backorder.
I am researching the use of the KeyMatic device.

Thanks. I can do it with DSC or Honeywell equipment.
I take it you are in Europe?

Yes I am in Europe.
Does DSC and Honeywell use sensors with known protocols and are these devices available from 2rd sources ?

[theomeier]

But why would you then not want to use the original integrated ABUS euro profile lock / alarm controller?
That part is now quite unclear to me.

The original radio cylinder Abus SecVest Key is rather unsafe, flimsy and easy to pick.
I have on back order a safer version which can be attached to a knob cylinder (e.g. IKON SK6 146 NP).

Since the Abus cannot at the moment deliver a fitting radio cylinder I got into researching alternative means of fitting the door with a suitable device and came up with the KeyMatic motor lock.
I am thinking of throwing all that proprietory Abus SecVest stuff out and going for something, that is more open and can be integrated into a Home Automation environment in order to make ot more accessable through other means (e.g. internet).

[theomeier]

I think the ABUS version does not use the ELV-proprietary BidCoS, but Keeloq.

Would BiCoS fulfill your requirements?

Cheers
mh

The ELV KeyMatic 300 IQ+ seams to have a receiver (RX868Sh-KL) with according to the following post (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14556) speaks the KeeLoq protocol.

The KeyMatic HM from http://www.eq-3.de speaks the BidCoS protocol.

Either two would fulfill my requirements, provided I can wirelessly channel the lock status or action to my alarm system.

[stratmando]

I have to read up on some of you equipment and protocols, will be back, Take a look at this for now:
http://www.abloy.ua/PDF_file/M_L8154.pdf

[theomeier]

I have to read up on some of you equipment and protocols, will be back, Take a look at this for now:
http://www.abloy.ua/PDF_file/M_L8154.pdf

Tx for the link which I checked.
The lock will not suite my needs:
- the dimensions of the lock case, cylinder openings (Scandinavian oval and - round) and the form of the dead bolt will not fit European norms, so that neither the cylinder, lock case nor lock plate will fit. There is the norm DIN 18 251 which details these parameters. I will have to use a lock case and a cylinder according to the "Euro Profile".
- this motor lock will need external power supply to function, which I do not have

But you got me thinking. I allways presumed, that the cylinder would have to include the sensors. Possibly one could use the lock case of a motor lock fixture (ex motor) to access the operation or the status of the bolt ?

[mh]

yes, you can easily attach a microswitch to a lock case to check if the bolt is fully retracted.

Just be aware that someone could do that (using force or non-destructive techniques) and would at the same time disarm the alarm system.

About using a dedicated alarm system or one integrated into home automation:
One point to consider would be that a dedicated alarm system might run longer on battery, and might be less problematic in terms of SW bugs etc.

Also, I'm not sure what your requirements are regarding "open" protocols etc.;
anyway all wireless alarm systems are problematic regarding someone blocking radio transmission (even if it detects that - what will you or your neighbors do when you get the 10th false alarm in one night without any physical evidence of an attack) -
not sure if open protocols and easy access to transmitters are helpful there.

Cheers
mh