trying to foil a picker (dupe topics merged)

[nammich]

I've got a little lock picking experience, just a little, so I can talk here somewhat. I think someone may be trying to pick my mother's house lock, so I've come here for advice.

I've bought her the best Wal-Mart dead bolts and knob locks I could find, made by Brinks. They feel solid but they could be crap, I really don't know.

Anyway, the first set I put in had a virtually flat 5 pin key, and that just struck me as TOO easy to pick. So I figured I should get all of them re-keyed to a more difficult pin set to pick. So here's my question...for a 5 pin key, what kind of pin set should I ask for when I get these things re-keyed to make for a more difficult pick?

Also, instead of getting them all re-keyed the same, I'm thinking about making them all different from each other. Two have to be picked to get through a door so I figure might as well make em work for both locks.

Also, all locks have been installed upside down, pins on the bottom.

Please let me know what ya think. Thanks for your time.

[merged posts]

It looks like someone has been trying to pick one of my mother's exterior door locks and I'm looking to increase the security to her house.

We'll be installing a number of security devices, electronics, beefier door frames, etc. But, I've been wondering about installing some kind of lock that doesn't involve a key at all. Like, is there such a door lock I could install that would be invisible from the outside, but would require like a specific magnet to be placed on it from the outside so that it would retract, allowing entry? Is that kind of lock even made or am I just dreaming?

And where could I go to get such a lock?

Thanks for your help. Appreciate your time.

[MacGyver101]

I think someone may be trying to pick my mother's house lock, so I've come here for advice.

You obviously know your situation better than we would... but my first bit of advice would be to look again and see if there's some other explanation (other than lock-picking) for whatever it is that's happening. I can think of perhaps two cases that I've ever read over the years where thieves were actually picking locks to get into someone's house.

I've bought her the best Wal-Mart dead bolts and knob locks I could find, made by Brinks.

They're about as top-quality as the food you can buy at Wal-Mart.

So here's my question...for a 5 pin key, what kind of pin set should I ask for when I get these things re-keyed to make for a more difficult pick?

Just to check: by "pin set" are you asking about the cut depths on the key? If so, a pinning with alternating deep and shallow cuts is generally harder to pick... but different locks have different rules and restrictions as to how they can be pinned, so the answer varies a bit depending on lock.

Also, instead of getting them all re-keyed the same, I'm thinking about making them all different from each other. Two have to be picked to get through a door so I figure might as well make em work for both locks.

I think the only person you'd be inconveniencing there is yourself (and your Mom). Different locks will "pick" differently, even if they're pinned the same -- so keying every lock differently isn't likely to make things any more/less difficult for someone who's trying to pick the lock. (Just my $0.02.)

Also, all locks have been installed upside down, pins on the bottom.

Did you install them that way thinking that it would make the picking harder? If so, I'm not sure that would give you much protection. (European-style locks are normally installed that way: they can be picked in either direction.)

[MacGyver101]

I've seen magnetic latches sold occasionally for cupboards, etc.. (This latch comes to mind, for example.) There may be other options out there that I just haven't seen, but the "hidden" cupboard latches are low-security (e.g., plastic and no real "key"), and intended for cupboard doors: they likely wouldn't work through the thickness of a residential door.

Even if you did get a strong enough magnet for that style of lock, though, then you'd still have the problem that you're carrying around a giant magnet in your pocket. It would be a pain: you'd be constantly having to pull it off your pocket change and other keys... and, over time, it would probably not be friendly to the magnetic stripes on all of the cards in your wallet.

There are probably a few other stand-alone locking options, like various "niche" locks that use RF or even a secret knock to open the lock... but, to be honest, they've all always struck me as being a bit gimmicky.

Same question as in your other thread, I guess: how do you know that someone's been trying to pick the lock?

[Wizer]

I think it would be more useful to get a more secure cylinder than a 5-pin Brinks. If you are ready to spend money on a keyless lock and that cheapish cylinder, you might as well forget those and buy a securitylock like Abloy, Bilock or Schlage Primus with that money. That would keep an average criminal outside for sure.
...just my 0.02 euros

[raimundo]

I would want some deep cuts in that key near the tip with the absolute tip being as much higher as MACS will allow.

deep cuts near the bow or the middle of a key are hazards to the broken key problem but near the tip they are not so much.
so very high cuts near the bow, and dive as low as you can go near the tip, and back up on the tip.

[pin_pusher]

this post was posted on a different thread i'm pretty sure...different responses, but word for word the same...

[Legion303]

I've merged these topics together.

-steve

[lunchb0x]

If I was going to be keying it up to be hard to pick I would be putting deep cuts in front of a shallow cut. Also remember that having deep cuts near the head of the key makes the key easier to break, having the shallow cuts behind a deep cut, towards the back of the pin stack would make it harder to pick. For example using Lockwood space and depth with a MACS( Maximum adjacent cut) I would pick cuts like 47261. Having a shallow cut in between two deep cuts the chances are that with the binding order one of the deeper cuts will have to be picked before the shallow cut, if the 7 has to be picked first its going to restrict the picks movement to pick the 2, 6 and 1. Though depending on the binding order of the lock this might not be the case but either way I think that a pinning like this would be hard for someone to pick, if they can pick it well you really need some better locks then such as Abloy or Bilock.

Why is it that you think that some one is picking your mums locks? is there damage (scratch marks) around the key way that weren't there before?? Would be kinda hard to see that someone was trying to pick the locks, and really why would they, there are easier ways into a house.

[nammich]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm taking it all into consideration.

Like I mentioned before I really don't have a lot of experience picking locks. Really I've got only just enough experience to be asking these questions. I've always liked locks so a couple years ago I ordered a cheap pick set and some 3 and 5 pin locks to practice on. Sometimes after I messed up picking the 5 pin I'd stick the key in afterward and there was always a jerkyness with which the key went in, like it's forward movement was impended by something. Usually a jostling up and down as you moved it forward would get it through.

Recently I've been home enough to be given a key to my mother's side door. She's never noticed this before, but only recently asked if I had any trouble getting the key into the door locks. Didn't think anything of it at the time, but after thinking about it I realized I had had trouble with the locks and getting my key in felt exactly like it did when I had been practicing on my own locks, and the pins were sort of left half picked.

Any more advice and I'm all ears.

[mhole]

The symptom is almost certainly nothing to do with picking. 99.99999% probability.

The lock needs a little lubrication so that the pins can slide more easily to allow the key in. I use WD40 but that is frowned upon by many other users, so I'll let them suggest the lubricant of choice.

You may also find that simply running the key back and forward in the lock 4 or 5 times will free things up and solve the problem.

Eitherway forget any concerns about picking, that isn't the problem here.

[MacGyver101]

I agree 100% with mhole: sounds like wear, not picking attempts.

[Raymond]

If a lock is picked with cheap picks that have not been polished until they are smooth, they will scratch the pins. Then you will have brass dust clogging up the pin movement. The pins require a smooth tip and lubrication to move when the key is inserted. Brass is very forgiving and will smooth out again if lubed. My first suggestion to fix this is to lubricate the locks. Almost anything will work as a lubricant immediately but for a long term lube use teflon or graphite powder.

Keying all your locks differently will become a PIA and you will get tired of the nuisance. Until you are ready to do it yourself, your locksmith can easile set up a pick resistant bitting code.

Before you finished you post I was thinking of door frames where the contractor failed to drill the strike hole out the full one inch. Shaking the door could maked the bolt go back.

[Legion303]

If it's wear, I would also expect the key to turn hard, or sometimes needing a jiggling motion. If it still turns smoothly it *could* be the result of someone picking, but more likely it's just dirty. Lubricate it as suggested, then see if the problem comes back.

-steve

[raimundo]

when a new key turns hard, its not fitted right and one or more of the bottom pins is too long. this sort of thing can be allowed to just wear in, lubricate it.

When an old key needs jiggling, or is 'tricky' meaning it needs some position adjusting this can be due to the keyedge being worn down, when you jiggle, you are actually picking by lifting the pins above the line the key naturally does.

If your door is tight or subject to moisture expansion, the boltworks will be hard to turn, if your key finds turning hard even after the plug is clearly unlocked, its probably the boltworks that are jamming up. There can be many reasons for this including a bad installation, (too long a tailpiece and a hard screwed down thumbturn can put linear pressure on the tail/plug and the pins, solution cut the tailpiece down a little bit

My landlord has a door that has a rimlock only loosely attached, this rimloc only works in the topdeadcenter position and will not properly pull back the bolt when the whole cylinder is turned to ten oclock, as it usually is. its a real pain every time, its also installed to open anticlockwise. Think about having to pick this open not knowing that its counterclockwise.

Which brings up a question, when a lock is installed to turn counterclockwise while still being installed right side up (northamerican style) I recognize this as an amateur installation job and there may be functionality consequences.
can anyone list the number of problems that this would cause? Whatever the case, the boltworks would be upsidedown to gravity that they were designed to work with. Possibly with this extra gravity, a sharp blow on the knob or lock could drive the locking pawl downward into a live bolt position.
there could be many other outcomes, if anyone knows of them, this is the place now.

[Raymond]

Which brings up a question, when a lock is installed to turn counterclockwise while still being installed right side up (northamerican style) I recognize this as an amateur installation job and there may be functionality consequences.

This statement MAY not be true in all circumstances. The direction the lock turns to open is usually just a result of which side of the door the lock is mounted and what brand the lock is. Again, although not always true, most US deadbolt locks open if turned toward the hinges. Of course, Kwikset knobs, so very common, have to be the exception. They always turn right to open. But the deadbolts follow the hinge rule.