Deadbolt Help

[zildjianbaby]

I've been going through Practical Lock Picking by Deviant Ollam and do rather well with 4 pin padlocks, etc. But, I can't, for the life of me, get a door or a deadbolt to open. I thought perhaps it was a tough plug to turn after the bolt was thrown, but even leaving the bolt alone, I can't get anything to happen.

Feel-wise, the rake just feels like the pins aren't setting at all. Occasionally, with more tension, a couple will set, but no more than that. The locks themselves aren't expensive ones. They're just an average set I picked up at a hardware store. Surely it's not all a case of me having only been picking locks for a few days. There HAS to be something missing, yes?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[deception]

Chances are there are security pins in the lock your trying to pick. Is there any slight rotation while picking, or are you just not getting anything at all?

You should try picking it, or atleast practice SPPing, in the long run, SPPing is better, more control, better feedback. With raking it's kind of like spraying and praying with a AK-47, chances are you might be setting a couple of pins, but not the others.

[zildjianbaby]

i dont really get anything at all, no. when i release the tension slowly, i can hear 2, sometimes 3 soft clicks, but i never hear the distinct click of setting a spool pin. and even when feeling around, there dont appear to be any pins that have significant resistance. then again, i barely know what im supposed to be feeling in the first place and can barely tell what it feels like when i pick the padlocks. which, even with spp, i can usually do in about 5 seconds. granted, they dont have any spool pins, but hey. at least its teaching me when its picked.

oddly, though, with one of my padlocks, sometimes the tension tool drops about 10 degrees even though the lock isnt ready to open. i usually have to start over because when it drops, i go with it and end up putting too much pressure on it. any reason why it drops like that? just interference from the pick?

[deception]

i dont really get anything at all, no. when i release the tension slowly, i can hear 2, sometimes 3 soft clicks, but i never hear the distinct click of setting a spool pin. and even when feeling around, there dont appear to be any pins that have significant resistance. then again, i barely know what im supposed to be feeling in the first place and can barely tell what it feels like when i pick the padlocks. which, even with spp, i can usually do in about 5 seconds. granted, they dont have any spool pins, but hey. at least its teaching me when its picked.

From what it sounds like here, it sounds like your over setting the pins, and that's why the clicks are softer.

oddly, though, with one of my padlocks, sometimes the tension tool drops about 10 degrees even though the lock isnt ready to open. i usually have to start over because when it drops, i go with it and end up putting too much pressure on it. any reason why it drops like that? just interference from the pick?

Here it defiantly sounds like security pins, you just need to learn how to pick them. Start by pinning up a lock with 1 spool pin, so you know where it is, and try picking that, so you know the feel of the spool pin, and how you should be picking it.

[zildjianbaby]

security pins, really? its just a cheap, 3 pin brass one from "helping hand" though, it is double latched, but , still. it surprises me that a cheap lock like that would have spool pins.

as for the deadbolt, you think im raising the pins too high? how do i, you know, not do that? just use the feeler more gently and don't lift as high?

[deception]

Yes, from what it sounds like, if you lighten up the tension on the padlock, and even if it rotates, just feel for the pin that is "stuck", as you try and raise that pin you'll feel the plug counter rotate. That's the sign of the security pin. You should be using light tension while picking this.

I just picked a cheap 10 dollar lock today, and it had security pins in it.

As far as the deadbolt, you might be picking it wrong, as far as binding order is concerned. Raise the pin slowly, and either listen for a distinct click, or feel for the pin setting.

What kind of padlock and deadbolt are you trying to pick, this might help with determining why your having trouble.

[zildjianbaby]

i bought it at ACE, but it doesnt have any identifiers on it. and it's been quite some time since i purchased it, so i imagine its just their store brand? as for pressure, im not really using more than a pound or two. its also been exposed to the elements a fair bit, so perhaps its become corroded from all the NW rain?

[deception]

As far as the ACE brand is concerned, you should check out these topics. HERE and HERE.

Not sure which is which as far as deadbolt or padlock is concerned, but you'll see that it might be cheap/crappy, but it still has something decent in it. If your really wondering what's wrong with picking the deadbolt you could take it fully apart, and see if there are any security pins, it's not terribly hard to do.

[zildjianbaby]

its the padlock thats inexpensive, but apparently not cheap. though, since the tension tool drops clockwise, and it OPENS clockwise, im still confused as to why this is happening. then again, im very, very new to lock picking, and could just be misunderstanding the term counter rotate.

ive aso read the MIT guide and think im going to take the authors advice and switch from focusing on getting the thing to open, and focusing on learning about whats going on inside.

the threads were very helpful, thank you. slightly daunted by having gone from a simple 4 pin master lock with all the pins at the same depth to all (?) spool/serrated in about a week, but i suppose i should start out as i mean to go on

[zildjianbaby]

oh. and its just the tension tool that rotates, not the plug itself, which is why im confused

[zildjianbaby]

after picking the padlock time and time again for about 4 hours, i think i have something to report. im pretty sure its the 2nd and 3rd pins that are security pins because while it likes to pick back to front, i usually get false sets (i think?) on pins 2 and 3, and have to go back to them. whats curious to me is that the pin 1 doesnt appear to have a need to be set - which is why in my head, i was thinking of it as a 3 pin lock (even though 4 clicks means 4 pins, yes?). whether or not that pin is raised doesnt seem to make much of an effect on whether or not the lock opens. sometimes the lock opens with pin 1 halfway up, other times it opens without it having moved at all.

also, the way i came to these conclusions isnt a very elegant one. then again, im a newb, so elegance is a pipe dream for me. i bring it up, though, because practice makes permanent; perfect practice makes perfect. anyway. id start in the back and work my way forward, but in a quick, haphazard way. just rocking the feeler up and down and moving it in and out, gradually paying more and more attention to where it was in the lock and what it was doing when it opened. i have yet to really feel the false set, and the concept that theres give in a false set pin still eludes me. to me, it just feels like a pin that needs brute force to be wrestled into submission.

of course, the victory of learning to tell the difference between pins isnt without its defeat. the problem i have is that when i sit down and try to spp it in a slowly, setting each pin deliberately, i cant get it to open. im not sure what im doing wrong, because half the time, when im stumped on the slow spp, if i start just picking away, in and out, it'll open. sometimes its the back pin which felt set but wasnt, other times its the third pin. if i feel around gently on the pins, it gives me nothing; they all feel rigid without give.

also, im not sure how to take the lock apart. from what ive seen on youtube, theres a screw inside that one undoes to release the plug, etc. but on this one, there isnt

this is a most confusing hobby

[OrangePick]

oh. and its just the tension tool that rotates, not the plug itself, which is why im confused

Most of the time when your pick motion makes only the tensor move (and not the plug), it means your pick is actually levering against the tensor inside the keyway (I'm assuming you're using bottom of keyway tension). If that's the case, you need to either reposition the tensor or switch from levering the pins to pressing them down. Some pins are a pain to press down and I prefer levering in those cases -- so I use a variety of tensors to give me options.

TOK (top of keyway) tension, where you insert the wrench in front of the first pin, will pretty much eliminate levering against the wrench and you can often lever against a ward instead.

Just be careful -- levering isn't the best way to go most of the time, and if you're new, it's easy to bend your picks this way.

[OrangePick]

whats curious to me is that the pin 1 doesnt appear to have a need to be set - which is why in my head, i was thinking of it as a 3 pin lock (even though 4 clicks means 4 pins, yes?). whether or not that pin is raised doesnt seem to make much of an effect on whether or not the lock opens. sometimes the lock opens with pin 1 halfway up, other times it opens without it having moved at all.

This is normal with lower to mid-quality locks. If certain pins are deep cut (on the key), sometime just the thickness of the pick shaft over top is enough to press it to shear, and sometimes they truly don't need to be touched at all. I have a Master #3 in my bag whose binding order is 4, 3, 2. Pin 1 doesn't need to be touched. I have a Brinks brass "high security" 5-pin that basically only requires you to lightly brush past pins 2 and 5 to open it!

[Cryptologica]

Thanks, that was a very helpful conversation!

I have been practicing picking a No. 1 padlock like 100 times and any other locks in my house I can find! Though I have attempted it several times, I never can make much progress on my backdoor, which is a deadbolt. The pins just feel so fragile compared to all the other locks in my house? Perhaps it is because this lock is newer than the others? I am guessing that lighter tension and a more technical approach is required to pick a lock that has light pins (possibly security pins too as my guess, which I don't think I have encountered prior). I picked my garage lock one time and I think that had security pins, but haven't gotten it to open again.

I will take your advice and try and take it apart, then I can see if there are security pins and where they are located...Then I, hopefully, will be able to differentiate how normal vs. security pins feel.

[zildjianbaby]

when i take the lock apart, what precautions should i take? i mean, i know the logistics of how to do it, but how do i get it to go back together - assuming the driver pins dont go everywhere