Messed up combo change on OPEN Sargent & Greenleaf R6700

[bx10]

Hi, I’m not a professional, and I want to make clear that this post is about a problem I’m having with my own safe THAT IS ALREADY OPEN. In no way am I looking for any information that can be used to crack or attack a locked safe. I hope that makes this post OK.

I have a Gardall safe with a S&G R6700 combination lock. I messed up during a combination change (don’t ask!) such that the change key was removed after the first (or possibly second) new number was dialed in. Now I cannot get the lock to retract with either the old or new combinations. I’ve also tried the first number of the new combo and rest of the old, and tried aligning with both the open mark and the change mark, with no luck.

Again, I’m not asking for any info on how to attack the lock from the front, that would be beyond my abilities anyway. However, as the safe is open and I have access to the lock body from the back, I’m wondering if there’s a straightforward way to observe/manipulate the cylinders so that I can either determine what the current combo is, or just so that I can line them up to reinsert the change key and set a new combo.
Thanks very much for all help.

[femurat]

Hi bx10,
don't close the safe until you are sure everything is fixed and the combo opens the lock 2 or 3 times in a row.

Try to remove the back of the lock, usually you have to undo a couple of screws. With the back open you'll have the chance to look at the wheels turning and interacting. I'm sure you'll figure out the combo quickly.

Good luck and let us know if you succeed.

Cheers

[Squelchtone]

insert the key as much as it can be inserted, and dial the wheel until it goes in another 1/4 inch, then dial in the other direction until it goes in another 1/4 and so on until it is in all the way and you can turn it 90 degrees. Then dial your new combo to the 11 oclock change index then unturn the key and remove it, and follow femurat's good advice of dialing the combo 2 or 3 times with the door open to verify you got it 100%.

good luck,
Squelchtone

[Raymond]

I hope you have already solved your problem. But, here is my read on your situation.

If your original statement is exactly correct, then the lock may be set to only the first or first and second numbers. Try dialing the first and then go directly to the opening index. If that does not open, dial the first number and then the second number and then directly to the opening. You will be repeating exactly what you did just before pulling out the change key. If you got mad and flipped the dial and then pulled the key, plan on removing the back cover to reset. Removing the cover is a quick simple reset method for any safeman. Lining up the wheels by looking through the change key hole is a legitimate process so do not discount it.

good luck

[mcm757207]

The only way to do this easily is to remove the back cover, which is not really that scary. If you begin to insert the change key you will not be able to move the first or second wheels, as was previously posted, as the change key will block the movement of wheel three which in in effect prevent you from moving the other two wheels. Try the following:

1) Remove the back cover. This will be held on with two screws, which may also be holding on a secondary plate which holds a large square plunger back. Take photos and notes prior to taking anything apart so you're clear as to how it goes back together.

2) Align all of the wheels so that all three look the same; all 'notches' (we call them gates) are lined up, and so on. This can be done with your finger, or a small wire can be used.

3) With all three wheels aligned, insert the change key into the square whole. It should pass through all three wheels.

4) Use the change key to rotate the wheels around until the change key is more or less aligned with the hole in the lock cover you removed. Note: you are not rotating the change key at this point, merely using it to rotate the wheels to the correct position. When at the correct position, the change key will move slightly further in as the tip of the change key enters a small hole in the lock case behind the wheels.

5) Remove the change key, re-install the lock case so the safe is as it was before.

6) The change key should now slide fully into the lock easily, maybe with a little jiggling. Once in completely, turn the key till it comes to a stop.

At this point the new combination can be dialed. If you can, hold the change key in position with your left hand while dialing the combination so there is no chance of it jumping back. Remember that you are dialing the new combination to the change index, which is the line located to the left of the "crows feet" on the dial ring on the front of the safe. Make sure that the third number of your combination does not fall in the "forbidden zone" which is more or less between 0 and 20. Once the new combination is dialed, take care to turn the change key fully back to its original position before pulling it out.

Here's a couple of important notes. First, make absolute sure you tighten both of the screws holding the lock cover back on snugly. Should these come loose you may have a lockout. Also, make sure you try your new combination fully a number of times before locking the safe. "Fully" means dialing it completely, retracting the bolts, and extending them again with the door open. If the bolts will not extend without the door closed (that is, it feels as if the bolts become locked back when the handle is turned) there may be a small trigger on the hinge-side of the door (or sometimes the top or opening side) which you can press with your finger to throw the bolts for testing purposes.

If you're still having trouble, call a locksmith. Something like this wouldn't cost you more than $100 around here, unless something is broken. Prices may be slightly higher depending on where you live. Alternately you can lift the door off the safe and bring it to a lock shop, where it should be cheaper (somewhere between $30 and $50).

Good luck!

[bx10]

Thanks for all the replies. Especially thank you to mcm757207 for the detailed instructions. Before posting I'd taken the cover off, but didn't know enough about what I was looking at.

Here's where I am now: I've been able to align all the notches/gates on the wheels and spin them so that the change key reinserts fully, I've found the spot where the keyhole lines up with the opening in the back cover and the key inserts a bit more. So, I can reinstall the back cover, reinsert the change key fully, and rotate 90 degrees. So far so good.

The problem is that I next try to dial my new combo to the change index by rotating left 4 times. The dial locks between 60 - 70 after about two complete rotations when turning either left or right. That is, after inserting and turning the change key it spins freely in either direction for at least two complete rotations, but then locks so it can't go further in that direction. I can then spin two rotations to the other direction, with the same result.

Is there some other step besides aligning the gates and inserting/turning the change key that is necessary to make the lock ready to accept the new combination. Does it matter what position the outermost small wheel (with RH / LH etc. on it) is in?

I'm attaching a photo of the lock in its current state, in case something obvious jumps out at you. BTW, I took the photo with the cover off, but I'm normally attempting this with the back cover properly in place and the change key inserted through it.



Again, thanks so much. Even if I wind up having to call in a pro at this point, it was interesting.

Best,
bx10

[dls]

Its possible that if the change key was not inserted fully on a previous attempt and that one or more of the
cams which the key turns is out by 90 degrees. if this is the case is the dial will turn several turns then stop when it picks up the offending wheel. There are several reasons for this happening one is a three wheel key in a four wheel lock or a twisted or worn change key.

There are two ways to fix this one way is to strip the lock taking care to note the way it all goes back together correctly ,the little cams with the square holes in them will all have a small index mark and there may be a similar mark on the wheel. The trick is to align all these marks in the same direction twards the center of the wheel is a good starting point. Once this is done reassemble lock and line the wheels with the change hole. With the back off inset the key and try to turn the dial if it locks up then put the back on and insert and turn the key. the dial should now be free to turn.

The second way may require you to file most of the round tip of the change key off so try to get a second one.

Try to insert the key into the first wheel and disengage it by turning the key through 90 so the dial spins freely then remove the key without turning.

Then line up the gate in the second wheel with the first with a finger or screwdriver and reinsert the key into the two wheels.
the dial should spin freely if it locks up the second wheel is the problem. If the second wheel is the fault then remove the key without turning and reinsert it into the first wheel only and turn through 90, when this is done insert it further into the second wheel. The two top wheels should now have their cams aligned turn them both through 90 together and the dial should spin freely. repeat the process for the third wheel.

once this is done you are good to go once you turn the three cams back so the dial locks again and put the back on re insert the key and change the code

[mcm757207]

I think the above diagnosis is probably correct. When you rotate the square hole in the wheel you are disconnecting basically an inner wheel from an outer wheel. When dialing your new combination you are moving the inner wheels while in the outer wheels remain stationary, with the gates lined up. It sounds like wheel one, which is the wheel closest to the front of the safe, or furthest in from the view of the photo you took, has actually become unlocked when it should be locked. By turning the change key, you are unlocking wheels two and three while re-locking wheel one. When wheel one is locked it will not move because the change key is preventing its movement.

If this is the case, here is what I would do:

1) You are going to have to modify your change key. You will notice it is square save for a flat protrusion. The purpose of this protrusion or edge is to prevent its rotation until it is fully inserted. You will have to remove this with a grinder, so the change key is completely square from the tip up to the existing notch (the notch which typically lines up with the lock cover when the key is fully inserted).

2) Now line up your wheels as you did before with the square holes lined up, EXCEPT wheel one. Remember wheel one is the one furthest into the lock, or closest to the front of the safe. You want this wheel to be lined so that it is off from the other two, you'll see why soon:

3) Reattach the lock cover, and insert the change key. Because wheel one isn't lined up, the tip of the key should stop when it hits it. At this point you should be able to turn your change key 90 degrees, which should unlock wheels two and three.

4) Remove the change key as the lock sits right now, and remove the lock's cover. Now align wheel one as we did originally so that all three wheels are aligned, and reattach your back cover.

5) As the lock sits right now, if we are correct in our assumptions about the first wheel, all three wheels should be unlocked. Insert the change key fully into the lock, rotate 90 degrees, and dial your new combination to the change index.

6) Turn the change key 90 degrees back, which should lock all three wheels. Remove the key and test the lock for proper operation.

Hopefully that works. Be mindful of the large spring-loaded plunger to the left of the lock, it is called a relocker and will lock you out of the safe if you do not reinstall everything correctly. There should have been a plate on top of the lock cover which holds the relocker up out of the bolt work. The idea is that if someone punches the lock through to the interior of the safe that plunger will shoot down, preventing it from opening. Good luck!

[Squelchtone]

Is that a glass relocker plunger next to the lock?

=)
Squelchtone

[mh]

Is that a glass relocker plunger next to the lock?

=)
Squelchtone

Looks rather like a disabled "lock-was-removed" relocker?

Cheers
mh

[mcm757207]

Yeah, just a typical relocker. No glass.

[Squelchtone]

Yeah, just a typical relocker. No glass.

What would normally trigger that spring loaded plunger? a heat sensitive link that melts when heat is detected? a glass plate? then the door is punched or peeled or a drill bit hits the relocker?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[femurat]

Be mindful of the large spring-loaded plunger to the left of the lock, it is called a relocker and will lock you out of the safe if you do not reinstall everything correctly. There should have been a plate on top of the lock cover which holds the relocker up out of the bolt work. The idea is that if someone punches the lock through to the interior of the safe that plunger will shoot down, preventing it from opening. Good luck!

Hey Squelchy, the answer is already here

[deception]

Be mindful of the large spring-loaded plunger to the left of the lock, it is called a relocker and will lock you out of the safe if you do not reinstall everything correctly. There should have been a plate on top of the lock cover which holds the relocker up out of the bolt work. The idea is that if someone punches the lock through to the interior of the safe that plunger will shoot down, preventing it from opening. Good luck!

Hey Squelchy, the answer is already here

There's also a relocker on the safe lock.

[Squelchtone]

Be mindful of the large spring-loaded plunger to the left of the lock, it is called a relocker and will lock you out of the safe if you do not reinstall everything correctly. There should have been a plate on top of the lock cover which holds the relocker up out of the bolt work. The idea is that if someone punches the lock through to the interior of the safe that plunger will shoot down, preventing it from opening. Good luck!

Hey Squelchy, the answer is already here

I dont read so good, and I write even more bad.

thanks femurat!

Squelchtone