depth and space keys VS a code key cutter ?s

[Hollywoodpick]

Looking at the cost of a key cutter and a code key cutter it is a big price from one to the other.

My ? is
Just starting out can you use a normal key cutter and use depth and space keys to make code cut keys?

Will that work for most things? or would it be better to save up more and buy a cutter like the switch blitz to start with?

Also if the normal cutter will work do they make depth and space keys for most all most used locks including commercial locks.?

Looks like this could be a saving of $1200 or more after buying a normal cutter and the space keys i could buy other things with like supply's.

Thanks

[chriswingate]

I have cut a few keys to code using depth keys, I have a set of SC1 depth keys.
I suppose depending on the accuracy of your duplicator it could work.
It is quite easy to mess up though with slippage from the peaks when you set the new depth key.
You will also need to spend quite a bit on a set of depth keys for different key ways and lock manufacturers. I personally wish I had the money for a code cutter as it would make life infinitely easier compared to using depth keys.

[maintenanceguy]

We cut keys to code with depth keys. It's easy to do and pretty quick.

When we make up a lock core, the master and submaster keys are already decided so it's just the room key that we need to create and you can cut one key in about a minute. Probably faster than setting up a code cutter.

[Hollywoodpick]

Thanks anyone else - looks like i got one for and one wish i had a code cutter.

So dose a better cutter make using depth keys more easy ?

maintenanceguy what cutter do you have you use for this???
So you think using depth keys is faster why?

Thanks

[keysman]

We cut keys to code with depth keys. It's easy to do and pretty quick.

Probably faster than setting up a code cutter.

Well maybe.If you are just starting out get S&D keys for the locks you will be working on, There is nothing like a good code machine when you need one.
You can get a Foley-belsaw machine with the code attachment for pretty cheep if you look around. It is adequate for small jobs and it does actually work. My personal favorite is the Framon #2. It can do most anything you want to do ,Medico, Best IC and most automotive .I believe you can get an adapter for tibbe that will work on Abloy, ( Don’t take my word on that one )
It has some excellent selling points:
It is very tough! There are numerous stories of Framons falling off the back of a truck and suffering NO damage.
Framon Claims accuracy to .0005 inches that is about 8 times more accurate than and HPC or codemax.
They are easy to use when you know how, Yes it does have a learning curve, but if your machine is in a place where other people have access to it, they won’t be able to make a key .
If you have a problem with your machine ,a call to the factory is answered by the owner. ( Phil Framon)

[Hollywoodpick]

Ok a dumb ?

If you have a code cutter that dose not have a duplicator included on it can you still make key copy's on it?

Will it read the key you want to copy and then let you load in a blank to then make a key copy?
Or can you use a key guide to see what the key code is for the key and then cut the copy?
If so is that easy to do to many good copy's

Dose anyone make a system that includes all kinds of keys in one cutter.
standard home and car keys and High Security Automotive including code cutting all in one that cost less then buying two systems?

Thanks

[WOT]

Ok a dumb ?

If you have a code cutter that dose not have a duplicator included on it can you still make key copy's on it?

Will it read the key you want to copy and then let you load in a blank to then make a key copy?
Or can you use a key guide to see what the key code is for the key and then cut the copy?
If so is that easy to do to many good copy's

You will have to originate each key, but you can. You'll simply read the code or simply the root depth from the existing key and dial-in.

Dose anyone make a system that includes all kinds of keys in one cutter.
standard home and car keys and High Security Automotive including code cutting all in one that cost less then buying two systems?
Thanks

Framon is basically a simple machine using X and Y axis. The Y controls the depth. The Y is set once. If there are more than one cuts using the same depth, X axis is adjusted until all cuts of same depth are made. Y depth is adjusted each time different depth cuts are needed. The steeple angle is strictly determined by the cutting wheel used. Typically, 45+45 90deg symmetric cutter is used.

They advertise "one plunge", but here's the catch. The minimum root width is determined the cutter wheel. To widen, the x axis needs to be moved to widen the cut (a normal procedure on HPC code cutter). On a Framon, the plunger needs to be held with one hand and crank the x handle with the other.

To make a wide rooted cut in one plunge, then a wider cutting wheel must be used.

You can never make Schlage keys on a Kwikset (very wide root) dedicated wheel. You can make Kwikset keys on a Schlage wheel, but each cut will need to be widened manually.

By the way, the machine needs to be adjusted each time a different wheel is fitted, or mentally add calibration factor to accommodate the difference in individual wheel's diameter.

Let's say your machine is set to cut 0.2500" on a reference cutting wheel. If a different wheel is fitted that is 0.01" smaller, you will need to dial in 0.249" to get an actual cut depth of 0.250".

You will either have to keep adjusting the machine to give you a direct read out, or constantly use a calibration constant for each wheel. The constant will need to be checked periodically as the wheel will get smaller with use from wear.

If you're a property manager or an institutional lockie, then a punch cutter for your most widely used system is the best as it gives the exact root width and angle for the key system.

I've had a Framon #1 I got second/third hand. I had it for maybe 4 years. I used it maybe three times and it is older than I am.

[Varjeal]

If you are looking at a "all in one" code cutter and duplicator the only one I could really recommend quality-wise is the HPC Switch Blitz. Using a code cutting machine is honestly safer, faster, and easier than fumbling with D&S keys especially in cases where you have deep cuts split by shallow ones.

Also as mentioned before by the time you get enough sets of D&S keys going, you will be desperately wishing to spend the money on a decent code machine. If power is an issue for you (and it shouldn't be) you could always go with the Framon Punch or Curtis Clippers.

Reading keys is a good skill to have but doing so does not guarantee that the code key you cut will work in the customers lock. Customer keys are often worn (as are the pins in the lock) sometimes to the point that a code cut key simply will not open the lock. Basically, if you were relying on that method you would need to measure the depths for each space, compare them to a chart to really know if a code cut key would function properly.

[Hollywoodpick]

Thanks

Anyone using the 3D Pro it cuts everything it looks like one systems VS two for home and HS auto?

[Evan]

Thanks

Anyone using the 3D Pro it cuts everything it looks like one systems VS two for home and HS auto?

You should be using separate machines...

The cutter heads for the machines that can do high security auto keys are really expensive items to be wearing out making $2 and $3 house and cylinder keys with them...

Your costs to operate with one machine are just not going to justify that sort of expense and if something happens to your one machine (it breaks down or is stolen from your vehicle) you are down and out until you can obtain a new one...

~~ Evan

[Hollywoodpick]

I was thinking that myself plus the 3D Pro cost more then two others.
Can get a house and older auto code system and a HS code cutter for less then the one 3D.

But if one is broke i still could not make keys on the other for the other kind of keys it will not make.

So on the other hand one seems like a good thing to use for everything.

I do like the 3D feature of scanning a HS or normal key and it tells you the key code you can keep on file for that customers for any lost keys in the future and the web updates to everything very easy.

[Varjeal]

Other than cost..one of the main disadvantages of relying on one machine to do it all is...well...relying on one machine to do it all. Very few times can an "all in one" machine do as good a job as a machine designed specifically for one thing....and I can't think of any off hand.

Honestly, unless space is super critical to your operation, having a regular key machine and a specialized code machine for other work are far better options. Should your regular key machine go down you can read/measure the customers key and cut one on your code machine...should your code machine go down you could always use S&D keys on your regular machine (unless a specialized high security key).

Gogo TeamReduntantTeam.

[Raymond]

I vote for two machines. In our shop we have an ITL, Framon 1, HPC, and several duplicators. All of our Medeco, Keymark, SFIC, ASSA, ACE tubular, Flat Steel, and Safe deposit are cut on dedicated machines.

However, in my mobile van I have no code cutter and use exclusively depth keys. My most common uses are: Kwikset, Sargent, Russwin, Yale, Arrow & Schlage. I occasionally use various wafer keys like: Timberline, Chicago, Hudson, Yale, etc. This many depth keys will not break your bank. As you move on to larger systems and more volume you can reconsider the choice to get a code cutter or add depth key sets one at a time.

The code machines are considerably faster and better if you are keying even a medium size system. Depth keys work best for a very small volume.

Depth keys can be used to decode a lock taken apart almost as quickly as using a micrometer. I have some masterkey systems that are not using standard depths and the depth key is the only way to make a new key without the original. Depth keys can be used on almost any duplicator without adjustment or altering the key machine.

[Hollywoodpick]

Thanks for the information

For my mobile unit. I am now thinking.
For cost i might start with a normal cutter and use Depth keys as i do not think i will be very busy at first with a lot of home and business lock work. Seems like ebay has the best price on the Depth keys i have found so far so $200 or less should get me sets for 16 lock types.

Then maybe a sidewinder for my higher cost cutter as i expect to do more auto work then anything.

Then a transponder system and a lot of key blanks and parts.

Got a lot more supply's in including a lock pick gun that works so much faster then me picking so far. But i still can not open my one front door lock a old ez set lock.

[Hollywoodpick]

Also wanted to sat thanks for the information about (Depth keys can be used to decode a lock taken apart) I did not know that another good reason to have them.