Newbie wants to build his own safe.

[too-picky]

Hi,

I know better than to ask to get into Advanced/Safes. But what led me here is that I'd like to build my own safe. I owned a very large fire safe once. It got moldy inside and I got tired--even as a young pup--of hauling it up and down apartment stairs. So I gave it away to the movers that made it "go away".

However, I still very much miss having a safe--yes, I still have a couple of lock-boxes, but they are likely as secure as a card-board box, but a little less prone to catching fire--both boxes open to the same key, even though they were purchased at different times and places.

My question is this. How do I go about building a sturdy (I'll do the welding of the plate steel, which I hope to find at the local scrap yard) but reasonably safe safe? The obvious problem is the door/lock. Equally obvious is that a padlock on steel doors just won't come close to cutting the mustard.

And (my) money won't allow me to buy a ready-made door. Yes, I've looked at them, and for the rich people that have them, I'm sure they are the best. I'm unemployed and have to work with cash-on-hand.

So, if you have any suggestions, please let me know. I live in a area known for drugs--though I have helped clean it up a bit!--and I'm smart enough to know that Fort Knox isn't really secure, they just have lots of guns (, and tanks and aircraft) 24/7.

And no, for the same reason not just anybody can get into Advanced, I won't discuss the size nor the intended contents of the proposed safe.

[raimundo]

I have a save door with a combo lock that weights well over a hundered pounds, it has half inch armor on the front,
its not a fire safe door there is no asbestos or other insulation in it, You gonna be around minneapolis, pm me.
Many fire safes are made to save paper documents and often this includes a can of water with some kind of means of breaking open, possibly steam at 212 degrees as paper famously kindles at 451 fahrenheit. I think all the parts are there but its only a door and there is some assembly required.

[too-picky]

I'm on the westcoast, but thanks. It sounds like I could otherwise have used it. At least I'm getting a better idea of what is involved.

I've seen a multi-bolt key-latch for safes. I'll keep doing research and saving my pennies.

[Evan]

@too-picky:

Very large fire safes are very expensive and very bulky...

Sounds like your "lock-boxes" are the standard Sentry "safe" 1100 Fire Chests which are meant to keep things from burning or getting wet as opposed to keep them from being stolen... They look like lunch boxes and retail for about $40 to $50 depending on where you buy them... There is a larger model 1175 Fire File available which can fit in several inches worth of standard letter size papers in file folders...

Those are not burglary rated at all...

How good a welder are you ? Your profile listing indicates that you have a welding certificate... I wouldn't recommend attempting to build your own container -- not only would finding metal worthy of building it out of be difficult, it will also be expensive as scrap metal is valuable...

You should look at what is called an "internal control safe"... Such containers are found within larger "safes" to provide a secure compartment and also in lower security environments where the room itself where it is located is providing some of the security and it is being used as a secured compartment in the room for the cash or protected items stored within...

<< External Link to The New England Safe Company website Internal Control Safes page >>

In my opinion, I think that your needs can be met with this lower security container in that you have your "lock-boxes" which you can store inside the internal control safe which would serve the purpose of keeping the "lock-boxes" from walking away... There are three options for locks on this type of safe: mechanical combination lock, electronic combination lock and keyed cylinder lock...

Since you are leery of disclosing the size of the container you want or what you would be securing in it more specific recommendations are not possible, cost estimates would be vague but the general logic of safes is that more protected volume = more expensive...

The "ready made doors" you mention are often used on "safe rooms" which are more for paranoid people to run to and seek shelter inside of as opposed to being used to store valuables inside of (even though they are often used for that purpose also) because unless special construction methods have been used in building the walls, floor and ceiling of the room protected by the "ready made door" it isn't doing much of anything besides looking very flashy...

For your information, Fort Knox is in fact very secure:

Many of the security measures are passive ones, the exclusion zone has grown over the years from being an octagonal area enclosed by the original fence line to become a larger and larger area with each expansion... There are now multiple fence lines to conquer if you were trying to randomly approach the building... The area surrounding the building has been cleared from having trees (especially a formerly tree lined driveway) to being a grassy area almost totally devoid of any landscaping materials other than the grass... The security barricade is now located much further away from the building than it used to be...

The active security measures on the outside are very powerful sensor systems which can detect and track a target(s) moving towards the building using many various electronic means the exact nature of which is a closely guarded classified government secret... It has been publicly disclosed that those sensors are both powerful enough to be able to monitor for and keep track of cars that stop by the side of the highway which adjoins the Fort Knox depository property on two sides, if you stop there it isn't very long before "assistance" arrives to determine what your purpose for stopping there happens to be...

Once inside the building, most of the security measures are procedural in nature, the depository area is essentially a series of safes within safes that require the presence of multiple different people to open, i.e. dual custody type locks where more than one combination is required, where those people needed to open each compartment are not normally present unless the safe is scheduled to be opened for some reason for inventory purposes or to place something deemed "valuable" in secure storage for the government...

The weapons that the guards have access to as well as the proximity to the military base where the tanks are located are mainly for show, there have not been any attacks on the facility which have required calling for tank support... Since the area is restricted and closed to non-employees anyone approaching is considered suspect and is dealt with according to the established agency policies... The depository was only opened once to outsiders during a Congressional inspection/audit and footage of that visit was included in a documentary made about facility a while ago by the History Channel...

~~ Evan

[too-picky]

That info was very helpful indeed. No I don't want a safe-room, but I had taken into consideration the "entire space" which the safe will occupy, as well as the difference between fire and theft, though some things properly belong in both groups for protection.

The bottom line is that if I have to I'll just use concrete and reinforce it as best as I can (rebar, light steel plate) to attain whatever size, fire, and theft rating I can afford and am comfortable with. But there's no sense in building it and having it get bypassed or picked in 10 seconds, so I'll put as much research into it as I can, before I begin framing and pouring.

Actually, it might be instructive to build a little replacement for one of those fireboxes and see how that goes, before I scale it up a little or a lot.



Actually, I know next to nothing about Fort Know, except I did see some of the pictures when they allowed a film crew inside once. I've never been interested as it is, to me, largely a military matter. Being ex-Navy, I have always just left it at that.


Thanks for the load of info!

[globallockytoo]

When I first started my apprenticeship in the early '80's, I worked for a small company that built their own floor safes.

We purchased tube steel, about 30cm diameter. Welded a base to it. We welded a door stop inside the throat about 2cm down the inside. The door/lid fit inside the 20cm dia body (the steel tube was 6mm thick, so the lid had to be 12mm less dia to fit inside).

The door/lid had a comb or key lock attached and a spring relocker and a dog bolt. The lid would spin freely when locked. When unlocked, the lid could be lifted out in any position.

Building a floor safe was smarter and cheaper than a purpose built free standing safe that needed fire fill.

The floor safe when mounted in concrete provides it's fire protection.

[too-picky]

Very good food for thought. The only reservation I have is that the older you get, the less you are willing and able to bend and lift. Also, where I live we need a sump-pump to keep out the water. There are still one or two ways I might be able to do it and stay out of the water, but the bending. And a dehumidifier may or may not be feasible.

Ah, if solutions were simple, we'd all be Einsteins!

Thanks for the info. I suspect it will help in the future....hmmm.

[MacGyver101]

The obvious problem is the door/lock. Equally obvious is that a padlock on steel doors just won't come close to cutting the mustard.

If you're thinking of an actual safe lock on this, you might want to think about an electronic lock, rather than a mechanical safe lock.

Many of the electronic locks have the advantage that the "spindle hole" is simply a place to route the wires: you don't have to mount the lock directly behind the dial, which may give you more flexibility in constructing your interior locking mechanism. Having the lock mounted in a semi-random spot inside the door also means that people would have to go looking a bit harder if they're trying to... well, do any of the destructive entry techniques on safes that we can't discuss in this forum.

S&G, LaGard and a few others make excellent electronic models. If you'd like the convenience of easier entry, there are several fingerprint models as well... I'm not overly familiar with this particular lock, but perhaps something like this might fit your purpose: Biometric Safe Lock. It's a budget-priced safe lock, but UL-listed, and available in either swing-bolt, deadbolt or sping-bolt, depending on how you want to work your design for the locking bolts. (The National Locksmith had a few articles on them when they first came out, a couple of years ago, that seemed favourable... but other folks here likely have more practical experience with them.)

[too-picky]

I have an extensive electronics background, however, for locks and such, I'm not too familar and especially not too enthusiastic. All that I think about is if the battery or power goes out, what are you left with? I'd have to do extensive research before I'd even give the electrics a green light. I very nearly bought a stand-up gun type safe for a temporary measure, but it had the electric lock and walked away.

I'm sure there are numerous reasons to select electric: easy to change and dial combinations, number of combination permutations, possibly less potential for picking. But I look at the other side of the coin. How easy would it be to prevent the owner from accessing the item? I've seen too many supposedly electronic "secure" items, that can be bypassed or easily broken.

But more food for thought, nonetheless.

Thanks.

[MacGyver101]

All that I think about is if the battery or power goes out, what are you left with?

The better models either have the batteries on the outside, or a way of applying emergency power (e.g., holding a 9V battery up to a set of external contacts).

The cheap electronic locks that you'll often find on "fire safes" -- most of the Sentry models, for example -- aren't really that secure, for reasons that I can't get into here. In contrast to those cheap locks, proper electronic safe locks (S&G, LaGard, etc.) have all of the critical circuitry properly protected from physical and electrical attacks.

[too-picky]

External battery was the first thing that came to my mind. I'll do some research. I'm still leaning towards mechanical, but you never know. Education does strange things to people.

[cledry]

If going with electronic I would shy away from the S&G units. They give us far more trouble than the other units. If going mechanical then G&G are fine.

[too-picky]

Could you clarify G&G mechanical for me?

Will avoid S&G electronic!

Thanks.

(I know where a section of 1/4-3/8" plate steel is in the river. Several have tried to get it out, but it is still there. I'm debating whether it is is worth the effort of sinking to/past your knees in mud etc....)

[Evan]

Could you clarify G&G mechanical for me?

Will avoid S&G electronic!

Thanks.

(I know where a section of 1/4-3/8" plate steel is in the river. Several have tried to get it out, but it is still there. I'm debating whether it is is worth the effort of sinking to/past your knees in mud etc....)

Typo...

S&G... Sargent & Greenleaf...

~~ Evan

[too-picky]

Thanks. We're almost real time.

Thanks for the input. Job market is way upsidedown right now, so I don't know where to turn. Knowing a few facts helps very much!

Dale