Couple of newbie questions

[DanG]

Hey guys, just found this place while searching for some DIY info on re-keying my residential locks (and I've always had a fascination with locks, but never really took the time to really understand how they work).

I'll preface this by saying: I ordered new locks and door knobs for the exterior of my house (I mostly wanted something a little better quality than these flimsy door knobs the builder used), and after also watching a lot of videos about how to re-key my own locks, for grins I decided to take apart one of my Weiser deadbolts last night. All was going well until I realized that my plan to use a sharpie as a plug follower was flawed (whoops!). To my dismay, I found myself looking at a small pile of springs, master pins, and top pins.

Question #1: I assume that since I found some master pins, that this means there is a master key to my house potentially floating around somewhere out there? This troubles me greatly.

Question #2: Holy crap, there has to be a better way to reload the springs and top pins into the lock cylinder! It took me a good 45 minutes of MacGyvering to get that thing back in (helped once I had a properly sized plug follower). I ended up using tweezers, a straightened bobby pin, and some improvised tiny pieces of double sided tape!

Question #3: I finally got my cylinder put back together, and left the master pins out. My keys all still seem to work, but I assume now that the master key(s), if out there, will NOT work in this lock now?

Question #4: Without actually having the master key, there is no way I could put those master pins back in correctly even if I wanted to, right? (there were three, of varying sizes, in this 5-cylinder lock). I supposed I could try to carefully take apart one of my other keyed alike deadbolts and use it for comparison, but again with out the master key, I think this would be insanely tough (for me) to pull off.

Anyway, suffice it to say, I unknowingly bit off a bit more than I thought I could chew last night, although it seems to have turned out alright in the end, and I learned a great deal! Any more help/advice is welcome!

[MarkMcGrath]

Ok so you left the Master pins out? I am not sure if I am right or this works on the lock specific for you, but heres my limited understanding.

D - Driver Pin (You refernce as Top pin, but I have grown fond of Driver due to locks not always being American style up)
M - Master Pin
K - Key Pin

This may get confusing if so I am sorry. However we are going to pretend the pins are the same. If all pins are equal length and your key hasn't changed then your key shouldn't work unless the master pin is really small and your lock tolerances are loose. Now if it is version 3 it should prevent the lock from working with a master key, but if it my guess to what you did, then your key may work but the master shouldn't.

1. Original Pin configuration 2. Your version 3. Possible configuration

1. 2. 3.
D D M
M K D
K K

Regardless if you want to prevent the master key, just rekey the lock and you are set.

[DanG]

Based on my limited understanding of how master keys 'work', I believe that it was in configuration 1, and now it's in configuration 2 (except that there are only Driver pins sitting on the key pins). The master pins that fell out are extremely tiny, at least compared to the driver and key pins.

[cledry]

Your lock was likely construction keyed. Typically the first time the home owner turns the key in the lock one chamber will be dumped into a retainer slot where it remains. After this happens the construction master no longer works, however one can simply make a series of 5 master keys which will then work any of these locks even after the home owner has used their key. It is always best to remove the master wafers. I use a master follower for this.

To load your pins and springs if you have dropped them intentionally or otherwise you put your follower half way in and drop a spring in the middle chamber, then using your tweezers push a pin in that chamber and whilst holding it in the tweezers simply push the follower against the pin, this will hold it in place whilst you push it home with the tip of your tweezers. Should take no more than a few seconds per lock.

[cledry]

Forgot to say you then proceed to the next chamber and repeat. Then you repeat the process from the other half of the cylinder working your way out.

[MarkMcGrath]

Ok kinda like this but now you don't have the master pins (center ones). If that is true and your key still works then it might be loose tolerances.... I am not sure someone should chime in, this is all reasoning on my end. If you pull those pins out the shear line should change so your key wouldn't work, has the lock become harder to turn?

[MarkMcGrath]

I forgot about construction pins. Will have to read up on that more.

[DanG]

Ok kinda like this but now you don't have the master pins (center ones). If that is true and your key still works then it might be loose tolerances.... I am not sure someone should chime in, this is all reasoning on my end. If you pull those pins out the shear line should change so your key wouldn't work, has the lock become harder to turn?

Wouldn't removing the master pins just remove that second shear line? I was thinking (and this seems to be the case) that removing them just left the lock in such a state that now the master key won't work.

When my new deadbolts get here, I'll take this thing apart (carefully this time) and post some pictures. I have two other deadbolts keyed the same that I am guessing will have the same master pin setup.

[Buzo]

If you were planning or re-keying them, did you purchase a re-key kit? You can purchase small kits for Schlage and Kwikset/Defiant at your local hardware store. You can re key your locks to either the keys provided in the kit or to your original keys.

[DanG]

If you were planning or re-keying them, did you purchase a re-key kit? You can purchase small kits for Schlage and Kwikset/Defiant at your local hardware store. You can re key your locks to either the keys provided in the kit or to your original keys.

I was not planning to re-key these locks, I just disassembled it out of curiosity. I had at one time thought about re-keying them, but after doing some research, I decided to just order new locks (and new doorknobs that my wife likes better) which are a different brand.

[cledry]

Typically on construction keyed locks the master key uses all deep cuts (not good practice in a real MK system), so removing them usually has no effect on the working key, just the construction MK. On a Kwikset lock, one of those master pins would be replaced by 3 small ball bearings which equates to a .025 master pin. These will end up in a cavity on the plug once the user key is turned, thus the construction MK now shouldn't work.

[DanG]

I'll look again when I take the lock cylinder out next, but I don't recall seeing more than one set of holes in the cylinder (just the set for the springs and top pins). Would there be a second set of holes for the construction keying?

On another note, I swore I stumbled across a thread on here that offered a good explanation of construction keying, but now I can't find it.

[Evan]

Question #1: I assume that since I found some master pins, that this means there is a master key to my house potentially floating around somewhere out there? This troubles me greatly.

Why should that trouble you greatly ? Do you live in a development which was built all at one time by a single builder ? Then you likely have a construction master keyed situation...

It is your job as the homeowner to re-key the locks when you take possession of your new home, why trust your investment to locks you have not installed, whom the previous owner could have given keys out to everyone in the neighborhood and you have no idea... Or they have distant family with keys who are unaware their relatives no longer own the house, etc... etc...

It should trouble you no less nor no more than buying locksets at a big box home center... Those "keyed alike codes" on the back of the package mean that if your neighbor buys a lock there they have a good chance of picking the same code as the locks you bought for your doors...

Question #2: Holy crap, there has to be a better way to reload the springs and top pins into the lock cylinder! It took me a good 45 minutes of MacGyvering to get that thing back in (helped once I had a properly sized plug follower). I ended up using tweezers, a straightened bobby pin, and some improvised tiny pieces of double sided tape!

What type of lock are you talking about here ?

Some are easier than others... Having a proper plug follower and pair of tweezers always helps...

Question #3: I finally got my cylinder put back together, and left the master pins out. My keys all still seem to work, but I assume now that the master key(s), if out there, will NOT work in this lock now?

Your locks were either keyed by someone who had no business even attempting to create a master keying system or the locks were mistakenly double top pinned... Removing the master pins in a properly master keyed locks would make all the keys inoperative as neither a change key nor a master key in a proper system should be all deeper or all shallower than any other level of key...

Question #4: Without actually having the master key, there is no way I could put those master pins back in correctly even if I wanted to, right? (there were three, of varying sizes, in this 5-cylinder lock). I supposed I could try to carefully take apart one of my other keyed alike deadbolts and use it for comparison, but again with out the master key, I think this would be insanely tough (for me) to pull off.

Probably for you, but for someone who knows what they are doing and could see an example lock, the lock you took apart could be keyed identically to the one which has remained intact...

Funny thing about construction master keyed developments is that usually only one or two main entry doors on each home are keyed that way, not every lock on every door...

~~ Evan

[DanG]

Thanks for all of the replies Evan, that helped a lot. I'm curious enough now to disassemble the other deadbolts to see what I can find.

In response to your questions:
It is a weiser deadbolt, and having never attempted to replace the top pins and springs I had a hard time of it. I found this video today that would have made things a LOT easier for me if I'd seen it before I started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez8krKBI4d8.

Based on what you said about the master keying setup, I'm less inclined to think that that's what those tiny pins are. I was a little surprised when I did get the lock back together, and my keys still worked. Again, I'll post some photos in a few days when the new deadbolts I ordered arrive.

Thanks very much for all the help guys!

[globallockytoo]

You guys make a lot of assumptions in this thread. Construction keying is often using small ball bearings, not master pins. And rarely 3 ball bearings in separate positions. I see it all the time......locks that have never been rekeyed often have master pins in them, because the builder may buy all his locks from the wholesaler in one big lot.....they are usually keyed alike in batches for each separate house/dwelling and are keyed to the builders master key so he can get into every place during construction without wasting time.