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Rakes are USELESS

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
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Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Rakes are USELESS

Postby Emrys » 28 Aug 2012 1:54

....or near. I have been picking locks for over 6 years and have had little need for all the fancy rakes they have out there. Honestly, give me 3 different profiles of hook picks, a variety of tension wrenches, and I can probably get that lock open for you.

Can anyone provide an argument against this? I'm honestly curious as to how important people place an emphasis on rakes. It seems to be a world parallel to what I'm used to picking in.

Thanks...and no disrespect was intended. 8)
"That lock? I could pick that with a finger nail and a piece of laundry lint."
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Squelchtone » 28 Aug 2012 2:11

Emrys wrote:Can anyone provide an argument against this?


A month ago during Lockcon at Lockmasters in Nicholasville Kentucky, a German gentleman and I were picking locks at one of the after parties. He was trying to pick some euro cylinder with a hook pick for a half hour and couldn't do it. It was a nice lock with good tolerances and hard to find the binding order. He let me see the lock, I inserted an S (snake) rake, pulled it out of the lock quickly while applying some light to medium tension at the same time and the lock opened.

Have you ever SPP'd a Medeco mortise cylinder fully pinned up in under a minute with a hook pick? I've done it a couple times with a 3 hump Raimundo Bogota rake, so there's something to be said about the power of rakes being able to set multiple pins to cut down on picking time, and I find it easier to rake the angles into place than pull or push the pins with a hook.

Different tools work for different folks, but it's always good to have other options. I would never just carry around a hook pick and a wrench, at least carry a half diamond or S rake to complement the hook.

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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Legion303 » 28 Aug 2012 6:00

I'm not an important person, but I'll answer you anyway. Rakes are just inherently faster. This is important in jobs like penetration testing or, I don't know, locksmithing, where speed is important. :)

For the hobby, I prefer the challenge of hooks.

-steve
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby MortimerDuke » 28 Aug 2012 7:40

Legion303 wrote:I'm not an important person, but I'll answer you anyway.

-steve


From LockWiki:
"Some notable and favored lock pick manufacturers and designers are... PETERSON. SPARROWS. GOSO. KLOM. LOCKMASTERS. SERE PICK. SHA-LON. SOUTHERN SPECIALTIES. TOOOL. RATYOKE. RAIMUNDO. LEGION 303. LOCKNEWBIE 21. STORM. HPC. SOUTHORD. LAB. FALLE. SECURE PRO. LOCK TECHNOLOGY. PRO LOCK. A1. DINO. MAJESTIC. H&S. HUK. LISHI. ES. RYTAN. ILCO."
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby MarkMcGrath » 28 Aug 2012 8:43

I think rakeing is a different skill for picking. Much like a tubular lock isn't the same as single pin picking a tubular lock... why beyond a challenge? The first big step I learned was raking from Schuylar Towns in a article, and Raimundos sexy awsome rakes. Those rakes plowed me through so many locks, and I never even thought to single pin pick till years later so I could gain more skill. If I can't open a lock and get frustrated I can probably rake it no time flat. Also rakeing works best with light tension so its a great training technique for heavy handed Marines.
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Solomon » 28 Aug 2012 10:04

Yeah, well, you know that's just like uh, your opinion man.

I also prefer to SPP, it's a lot more satisfying. And in theory you can SPP practically any lock, whereas raking is more hit and miss. I'd never suggest that raking wasn't a legitimate technique though. It has its place.

There are some locks I can SPP easily but I can't rake them open for the life of me, so it's understandable to think "why rake when SPP is more reliable". Thing is though, plenty of locks that SPP easily will rake open even faster. And then there are others that'll rake open almost effortlessly that you just can't seem to SPP at all. I'll give you an example.

A couple of weeks back, a friend of mine locked himself out of his bedroom. Asec rim cylinder, Y77 backset... I could've slipped it, but I didn't have any mica with me at the time. So I set to work with the good ol' short hook. For those who don't know, asec have a pretty nasty keyway and are mostly spools, 4 + 1 regular I think. Despite this they're generally a pretty easy pick, no different to the likes of iseo or mila. Mostly the keyway that's annoying. But anyway, naturally you're gonna get the odd one that gives you stick. And this was one of them. Typical.

I went to work the same way as I always do but there was very little in the way of feedback. I could get a couple of sets but it wasn't dropping into false and it just didn't feel right, so my initial thought was that I was oversetting something. I tried dropping pins and going over them again, tried different tensioners and placements, tried a DCAP hook, but it was just going around in circles. After a few minutes I was thinking crap, I'm gonna have to makeshift some mica to get in and it's gonna take forever cos this jamb is really tight... so I figured I'd try and rake it a little to see if I could luck it open or at least force a false set. Raked it a little and nothing happened, then as a last ditch effort I raised the pins right the way up and jiggled them a bit with quite a lot of tension, thinking I could maybe reverse pick them while raking simultaeneously if that makes sense... felt a nice bit of give, a little too nice for a false. And whaddaya know... that was it open.

So I went in, put the snib on and retrieved the key. All high cuts. That's why I wasn't getting any feedback... because of all the spools and the fact that the cylinder was pretty stiff, it wasn't actually dropping into false and binding any further. I would've had to lift the pins very high to get any binding, but it just didn't feel right at the time so I didn't think to try it. It's not very often you come across a cylinder pinned up like that so it really threw me for a loop. So anyway, if I had've tried raking first it would've been a 5 second job instead of a 5 minute one. And no head scratching. Not that he was in a hurry or anything, but still.

There's no place for ego on the job. Open is open. And in some situations, raking is the only way that some locks will open (at least in any reasonable amount of time). I have an ASSA cylinder here that I can't SPP to save my life but it rakes open pretty easily. Most of the time they don't have bittings forgiving enough to be raked, but it's nice when they do. And even if you picked a lot of ASSA locks you'd still spend a fair amount of time trying to figure them out, especially with someone peering over your shoulder the whole time... so if there's any chance you can pop it quickly with a bit of raking, I'd take it as a blessing. Don't knock it, you might not need to rake very often but one day you'll come across a situation where a bit of experience with raking really saves your bacon. :mrgreen:
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby MortimerDuke » 28 Aug 2012 10:24

Solomon wrote: but I didn't have any mica with me at the time


What is "mica"? I get that you would have shimmed the lock, but I'm only familiar with mica as a brittle mineral.
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Solomon » 28 Aug 2012 10:36

MortimerDuke wrote:
Solomon wrote: but I didn't have any mica with me at the time


What is "mica"? I get that you would have shimmed the lock, but I'm only familiar with mica as a brittle mineral.

It's just what they call the plastic sheets. Dunno why tbh. :?
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Squelchtone » 28 Aug 2012 11:49

Solomon wrote:
MortimerDuke wrote:
Solomon wrote: but I didn't have any mica with me at the time


What is "mica"? I get that you would have shimmed the lock, but I'm only familiar with mica as a brittle mineral.

It's just what they call the plastic sheets. Dunno why tbh. :?


Comes from Formica sheets / decorative building tiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica_%28plastic%29

;-)
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Solomon » 28 Aug 2012 11:59

Nice. Cheers squelchy :mrgreen:
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby MortimerDuke » 28 Aug 2012 12:03

squelchtone wrote:
Comes from Formica sheets / decorative building tiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica_%28plastic%29

;-)
Squelchtone


And from the Wikipedia entry:"The mineral mica was commonly used at that time for electrical insulation. Because the new product acted as a substitute “for mica”, Faber coined the name “Formica”

"For mica". I feel dumb that I never made the connection.
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby datagram » 28 Aug 2012 13:13

MortimerDuke wrote:
Legion303 wrote:I'm not an important person, but I'll answer you anyway.

-steve


From LockWiki:
"Some notable and favored lock pick manufacturers and designers are... PETERSON. SPARROWS. GOSO. KLOM. LOCKMASTERS. SERE PICK. SHA-LON. SOUTHERN SPECIALTIES. TOOOL. RATYOKE. RAIMUNDO. LEGION 303. LOCKNEWBIE 21. STORM. HPC. SOUTHORD. LAB. FALLE. SECURE PRO. LOCK TECHNOLOGY. PRO LOCK. A1. DINO. MAJESTIC. H&S. HUK. LISHI. ES. RYTAN. ILCO."



[citation need] :P

dg
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby MortimerDuke » 28 Aug 2012 13:31

datagram wrote:

[citation need] :P

dg


I started to write "from Datagram's 'LockWiki' " but I figured everyone already knew who wrote it! :D
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Emrys » 28 Aug 2012 16:52

Right on. Those are some pretty solid points for raking. But in keeping with the spirit of the debate, I'd have to say that if i only had 1 pick to have with me it wouldn't be a rake.
I have to admit that i do incorporate a raking technique into my spp'ing though. If i know all my pins are set and it still wont open, i give it a couple light rakes to help everything fall in place.

This discussion is actually making me want to start practicing my raking technique. The look on someones face is priceless when they see you open a lock in a matter of seconds!
"That lock? I could pick that with a finger nail and a piece of laundry lint."
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Re: Rakes are USELESS

Postby Josh66 » 28 Aug 2012 17:44

Emrys wrote:The look on someones face is priceless when they see you open a lock in a matter of seconds!

HAHA - Definitely. Especially when they were under the impression that a Master No. 1 is a 'good' lock, and then you rake it in less time than it would take to find the key on the keychain.
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