Key punches

[Sinifar]

I have been reading thru many posts on this subject, and get a bit confused. Either somebody is misusing the things, or they haven't had much time with one. We use "portable punches" around here all the time.

A-1 Pack-a-punch. This is a handy item to have. It works well. Ours is set up for IC - we cut A-2 and A-4 on it all day long. Been on the property since 1989, and we have cut over 10,000 keys with it and no problems. IC needs to be cut exactly, and this unit does that very well. I know switching from IC to Schlage and then Kwikset can cause problems, but as long as you are using it for a dedicated type unit, it works well.

HPC 1200 Punch. Okay, this is out on the truck. We use it to cut almost everything we normally cut. Been around since 1999 - cuts fine. No it won't cut everything, but then what it does cut, it does well. Mainly Schlage, Kwikset, all cabinet keys, padlock keys, and I have made some car keys on it.

Neither unit needs much adjustment, and on the HPC, don't change out the punch (PCH-14) - use one for everything. It will cut it. They just keep on working, and I for one have no complaints.

A-1 Hurdy Gurdy. IF you need only a few ACE type keys this unit will do fine, also on the road, it makes ACE keys well. No problems here either.

OUR older punches like the Curtis 14, and Curtis 15 are still around, and for auto work this has done yeoman work from just making one by code, to progressing keys on the job. Never been "adjusted" - just our original set up and then work the thing to death.

Mostly it is to have the power to generate keys on the road without power. 110 volts on the road can be problematic.

Back in the day when we still had the big trucks, we had a Redi Line unit (DA-25) which made 110 volts at 25 amps from 12 volts. With that we had one of the Framons out there and a HPC Speedex to go with it. It also provided 110 volts where there was none, and could run everything plugged into the truck. No the trucks did not have an automotive battery, but a pair of marine batteries in them. Two 12 volts marine batteries gave you tons of amps to convert into 110 volts.

Almost everything we run into is either Schlage or Kwikset or some variant of that, so the other keyways can be done here at the office and shipped out to the job as needed. IF I do get a surprise, I have a Foley 200 in the truck today with a 200 watt inverter, which can do almost anything. The Foley 200 is not a heavy duty machine, but like Dremel, a little bit at a time it gets done. Don't horse this machine, it won't take it. But it will cut very nice keys if you are gentle with it and take the time to work with it.

For a full time commercial shop of 46 years, this does serve our and our clients needs very well.

Sinifar

[ARF-GEF]

They seem much cheaper then the here ubiquitous Silca machines.
How precise is their mechanic?

For a full time commercial shop of 46 years

That is some respectable experience Sinifar.

[Sinifar]

Precise is a matter of how you use the things. If you keep on "fiddling with the things" - constantly tending over it with a wrench, it will give you grief. Get a dial caliper, and then READ your instruction manual which comes with the machine.

Make a cut. Measure the cut. Adjust if absolutely necessary, then check your cut. It should be within tolerance, + or - .001 or so, .002 will work for a lot of keys as well. THEN leave the thing alone. Just cut keys with it.

As far as how well they are made, it is like everything. I guess it works, ours do. We have had machines break apart with all the constant use, but that is another story. If you cut keys daily by the box full then machines are going to be used HARD. Some like the Exacta held up well for a few years, then one day it jammed and broke in half. No kidding. Our blue punch for IC went well until it started to "skip" - the timing mechanism wore out and it would "jump" several cuts with one stroke of the handle. Returned for repairs, it never worked right again. Junked.

Other older machines like our Curtis 9 which was purchased new in 1974 still is on the bench and making keys like a trooper every day. Nothing cuts flat, bit and barrel keys like the 9. It also cuts a nice cylinder key, and is one of two remaining duplicators on the job here. the other one is one of our older HPC Speedex machines.

This unit has the center grabbing jaws which are so necessary for keys like Illinois, Chicago, and some car keys.

We have a Curtis 2000 sitting on the shelf, I don't know if that will ever see duty again, there just isn't any room on the back bench for another machine. Besides, we don't make many "duplicates" around here anyhow, mostly they are cut as originals on the Framon.

The work horse of the shop is the Framon 2, which replaced a HPC 1200 which was bought in 1976, and died in 1985. The indicator gearing wore out. The HPC Punch is a replacement of this unit as it was, but as I said above, it is used on the road as it does not need 110 volts.

The Jet HS2000 is a newer unit we bought on sale about 5 years ago and does the 2 and 4 track type of keys, along with dimple and now ACE keys. this unit also gives us a way to get into other high security systems by re-milling the blanks. A handy unit to have. (Think Primus) Yes we are a Primus dealer as well, but the keys are super expensive and if we can cut our costs by buying the Jet keys and milling our own sidebars, it saves over HALF of the originals price.

AS FAR as ACE, we started with a Scotsman 747X which made all three sizes as well as originals. We wore that thing out, as we had the key in our yellow pages ad for ages, and were one of the big ACE dealers in the area. A replacement was bought, but this too got a lot of over usage Eventually it too went south, and for some reason about the time that second machine died, so did the ACE business.

SO now we only cut about a box a year - the Hurdy Gurdy does well for that, as well as the Jet unit for making keys like that down here. With the Jet we can make the Ace 10 cut keys, "cut within a cut" type, although those are fast going away as well.

This industry changes by the year. In the past say in the 70's - 80's we used to cut boxes of bit keys every month. It was not unusual to make those daily. About 95 that too went away, and now we only see a few every six months or so. Made one for a house which was over 100 years old this past quarter.

Key work / lock work which was popular suddenly goes cold. No idea why, the locks are still out there but there is no calls for servicing them anymore. Cars were like that - we did land office business with that line for ages, had enough back stock in locks and parts to start our own distributorship, then one day it just fell away. it never came back. I am not sure if the dealers had anything to do with this, by telling people ONLY THEY could make the keys, or the public felt our prices were too high, and the dealer was cheaper //// finding out much too late our "high price" was a bargain as the dealer price was twice / three times the quoted price from us.

Long again, I guess I could go on, but that is enough for now.

Sinifar

[ARF-GEF]

Thanks for the information rich post Sinifar!

Where I work we usually copy from key.So you don't do any measurements you just put in the key in one half ,the blank in the other and follow the original key's contour. Very comfortable and fast.
You see there it does matter how precise does the machine copy the pattern it's given.

PS.:

Long again,

Never worry about it! I personally greatly enjoy your posts.
It's good to have an experience locksmith around. Many of us are more hobbyists than pro. (myself included)
You have a very different point of view and area of experience.

[Sinifar]

Which is even more important that the thing is super close. Duplicate keys introduce that "error" you keep hearing about due to their being off. It should be checked about every other month to be sure it is cutting close.

Remember - SPACE can be off as well. To fix this one you need safe hinge shims. Put one behind the cutter to move it around if needed. Not all machines are "spaced" correctly, and changing cutter to something different than what came with it will move your space over a bit.

Part 3 - MAKE sure your key is "squarely" presented to the cutter. Many keys especially Yale and other keys with complex keyways can turn slightly making the key have a different presentation. You will need a wire inserted in the last groove under the key clamp to straighten the thing out. It really does matter, and makes all the difference in the world. Simply use about a .030 wire, like about 18 gauge and slip it into the last groove, then clamp the thing down tight. Do this on both sides. Your keys will work smoother.

ON key generators also make sure that what you are seeing is what you are getting. For Framon just use the dial caliper and measure the thing. It should be in "space" -- if not, you could have miscounted the turns, or did not line up the spacer block right.

Sinifar

[jeffmoss26]

Very informative as always!

[cledry]

Hmmm. I don't really understand why having 110 available on the road is problematic, it certainly is an advantage to have it. All of our trucks have 110 using simple inexpensive inverters and a single deep cycle battery, probably $300-$350 in total investment. All the vehicles have a HPC 1200 and an automatic or manual cutter. I use the 110 to power a small Mig welder, grinders, and other tools that take 110. It also powers work lights, fans, battery charger for the cordless tools.

We are a fairly small company with 4 service vehicles and a shop but still run a total of 6 code machines, 3 automatic duplicators, 2 semi-automatic duplicators, 3 manual duplicators, 1 tubular cutter, 1 flat steel cutter, 1 vertical mill type machine. All the clippers are gathering dust, probably should sell them whilst they still have some value.

I guess it is a matter of what works. I could get by without 110, and could use clippers but I find it less convenient personally.