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master keying questions

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

master keying questions

Postby scooterpower » 27 Jun 2013 18:20

I am learning master keying at LSI-Kentucky. I am having a hard time understanding some things.
In a five pin lock. If you have one master pin in each of two chambers how many keys can operate that lock?
I have been given the answer 8. When I draw this out on paper I can't seem to create that number. I get 4.
Same lock with 3 chambers mastered would be how many keys? Until I understand how two chambers = 8 keys I don't want to be guessing about three chambers. Any one?
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Re: master keying questions

Postby GWiens2001 » 27 Jun 2013 18:31

I also come up with 4 keys. Can't figure out 8 as an answer.

11111
21111
12111
22111

3 master pinned stacks = 8 keys.

11111
11211
12111
12211
21111
21211
22111
22211

Then again, I am not a locksmith. These are not the key bittings, just the two options on each stack with one master wafer in each stack.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: master keying questions

Postby scooterpower » 27 Jun 2013 18:51

Thanks so much. A locksmith I apprentice with also came up with 4. I guess I'll have to query the instructor tomorrow. Final exam is tomorrow so this will be interesting. I'll keep you posted what happens.
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Re: master keying questions

Postby GWiens2001 » 27 Jun 2013 19:31

Thanks, I'd like to know their answer.

Had one professor who would intentionally give an incorrect answer for two reasons. First, to see if anybody would challenge his answer. It would not make him upset if you challenged him. Second, he would see if you could prove your answer, even if he knew you had the correct answer. It was a good way of making you study the material more thoroughly.

Also think he did it to teach his students that teachers are not infallible. They can, and do, make mistakes. Some teachers take offense to students who question what the teachers are telling the students, and it can be unwise to go against them if you want to pass the course. This is just like real life. :roll: But he wanted us to find answers for ourselves, not just regurgitate 'facts' from books or lectures.

It was from him that I learned how to truly study and learn from tests and quizzes. Do not only know which answer is correct, but why it is correct, and why each of the wrong answers are incorrect. Make up your own test as you study your material, and make it tough. Write out the questions, then go over the material until you can get 100% on your test. If you do it right, you will come up with many of the questions that are on your final exam. Maybe not word for word, but close enough that you will know the answers.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: master keying questions

Postby scooterpower » 2 Jul 2013 21:44

I was correct the answer is 4 not 8. I posed this to the teacher and asked him to show how the answer could be 8. He could not. Apparently no one had ever questioned the answer. That question had been on that test for some number of years. BTW I passed the final with a 100%. Now I gotta find a way to make this into a paycheck. Thanks for the help.
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Re: master keying questions

Postby GWiens2001 » 2 Jul 2013 21:49

Good job, ScooterPower! Nice job on the test, and on asking the teacher to show how to achieve their answer. Well handled.

Now go make that paycheck!
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: master keying questions

Postby calipicker » 12 Oct 2013 17:09

I'm intrigued by master keys; can anyone tell me the basic principle behind how master keys work to open locks?
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Re: master keying questions

Postby spoonzor » 12 Oct 2013 19:01

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Re: master keying questions

Postby Evan » 14 Oct 2013 13:11

calipicker wrote:I'm intrigued by master keys; can anyone tell me the basic principle behind how master keys work to open locks?


The basic principle is that someone creates a system of keys where there is one key called the "top master key" which opens all of the locks and then there are "change keys" which operate individual locks or groups of locks which are keyed alike...

What else would you like to know about master keys ?

~~ Evan
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Re: master keying questions

Postby calipicker » 16 Oct 2013 14:37

I have picked master keyed locks fairly easily before. Is this because there are so many more possible ways that the pins can set on the shear line, or did I just encounter easy locks?
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Re: master keying questions

Postby Evan » 16 Oct 2013 17:18

calipicker wrote:I have picked master keyed locks fairly easily before. Is this because there are so many more possible ways that the pins can set on the shear line, or did I just encounter easy locks?


Speaking in general: Each additional break in the pin stack in each chamber of the lock makes it easier to pick a lock...

~~ Evan
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