Please help - clockwise and counter clockwise picking

[tomo18]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I tried to search around the internet to find an answer to my question, but couldn't find it.

I can easily pick TITAN K1 locks when applying clockwise tension to the plug with my tension wrench. This lock has 5 pins (3 regular, 2 spools).

Here's my problem:
When I pick the same lock when applying counter clockwise tension, I cannot open it no matter what I try. The thing is that when applying counter clockwise tension to the plug, I can get the lock to a false set with no problems, but when I push down on either of the two spool pins, the lock just doesn't react (it reacts just a little bit, i.e. i cannot clearly feel it on the tension wrench that the plug tries to spin in the other direction when pushing on the spool pin) and it feels like the spool pin is stuck. Even if I totally let go of the tension wrench and try to push on either one of the spool pins, the plug hardly rotates back to the neutral position.
On the other hand, if I pick the same lock by applying clockwise tension to the plug, when I get the lock into a false set and push on either one of the two spools, the lock reacts nicely (i can clearly feel it on the tension wrench how the plug tries to spin in the other direction when pushing down on the spool pin) and it feels like the spool pin is sliding nicely without any obstructions.

The above applies to all TITAN K1 locks I own. I have three of them.

My question is: given the above explanation of my problem, can there be any other security in the lock that makes it harder to pick when tension to the plug is applied counter clockwise? If so, can you provide some details about it and how to go around picking such locks?

Thank you all for your time,

T.

[YouLuckyFox]

My question is: given the above explanation of my problem, can there be any other security in the lock that makes it harder to pick when tension to the plug is applied counter clockwise? If so, can you provide some details about it and how to go around picking such locks?

Probably not, but if you wanted to test this, you could pick the lock clockwise and use a plug spinner, if the plug spinner carried the plug over counter-clockwise it is my understanding that there would be no direct security that applies counter-clockwise but not clockwise.

The binding order reverses (theoretically) when you pick the lock the other direction, so if you can pick the lock clockwise, take note of the binding order and see if you can go after the reverse binding order to help you have somewhat of a guide to picking the lock counter-clockwise. In reality, the binding order can vary drastically, but if you use top-of-the-keyway tension, my experience is that it is often close. Have you tried picking with the tension wrench at the top of the keyway?

Keep at it, you'll get it!

[phrygianradar]

Some locks are just easier to pick in one direction than the other. I have a Kaba 8 that I can pick CW pretty quickly. When I try to pick it CCW it takes about two to three times longer, if I can get it at all. I don't know why it is that way on this lock, but it is. I have, when it is in the open position, picked it CW and then used a plug spinner to get it going CCW so I can lock it again (extend the bolt, actually) but I only do this because I know that it will go CCW and I wanted to try my plug spinner out and get a bit of practice with it. If the lock doesn't pick both directions, using a plug spinner on it will be a quick way to break the tip off. This isn't going to be a problem with the Titan K1 but I mention that as a precaution. It is a good rule of thumb to follow; don't use a plug spinner on a lock that only picks in one direction.

Did you check out this thread? viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33998&start=30

Like Fox said, keep practicing and you will get it. Maybe.

[cledry]

If these are locks that are in use or have been in use the pin chambers typically develop wear that will on occasion make a lock more difficult to pick one direction. I've even had locks that with a key will turn one direction but will be hard to turn the opposite direction.

[tomo18]

Thx for the answers.

So, theoretically there is no difference if you apply C or CW tension to the plug. That's interesting, because the feeling on the tension wrench, when I push on the spool pins, is totally different when I apply C tension to the plug from when I apply CW tension to the plug.

Have you tried picking with the tension wrench at the top of the keyway?

No I haven't. So far I was always picking with the tension wrench at the bottom of the keyway. It seems easier because in this way I have a lot of space to insert and manipulate my pick.

[YouLuckyFox]

Hey, tomo18,

So, theoretically there is no difference if you apply C or CW tension to the plug. That's interesting, because the feeling on the tension wrench, when I push on the spool pins, is totally different when I apply C tension to the plug from when I apply CW tension to the plug.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I have a lot of theory on this, but no one else has elaborated on this, so I presume not to either.

Have you tried picking with the tension wrench at the top of the keyway?

No I haven't. So far I was always picking with the tension wrench at the bottom of the keyway. It seems easier because in this way I have a lot of space to insert and manipulate my pick.

Good on you, I personally find most comfort in laying the tension wrench at the bottom of the keyway, as it stays in the lock easier. But there are some locks that I actually have to pick with Top-of-the-Keyway (TOK) tension in order to make room for my pick. There is a video called SuperPicking: The Ultimate Lock Opening Video (it's not the best but it does elaborate a good deal on tensioning at about 33 minutes into it) that elaborates on this better than I ever could
Franklin D. Roosevelt said, "Do Something. If it works, do more of it. If it doesn't, do something else." If you ever run into a situation where bottom of the keyway tension isn't seeming to do the job, you might consider top of the keyway tension. I see that in my previous post I didn't really elaborate on how TOK tension is applied, so I made some pictures to show that the pick actually has slightly more room (at least in my personal application) than Bottom of the Keyway (BOK) tension.

First here's a picture explaining how binding order can differ depending on CW or CCW plug rotation. Notice the binding order is not exactly reverse of itself.


Here's a picture of TOK tension. You put the wrench right in front of--but not touching--the first pin. In the picture I bent a piece of wiper insert (courtesy of Gordon) as close to flush with the outermost protrusion of the lock as possible. This helps to minimize the tension wrench from flying out of the lock. The two disadvantages with TOK tension for me are that: you can't see the first pin, like you can with BOK (kind of a trivial complaint); and it can be harder to keep the wrench in than with BOK tension.


Here's a picture of the other end of the same wiper insert bent to go into the bottom-of-the-keyway. Note that there is actually more room for the pick with TOK than with BOK. As Superpicking points out, a lot of pickers overlift when trying to clear their tension wrench. To be fair, I found a perfect diametered insert that fit just as good-to-snug at the bottom-of-the-keyway as it did at the top to try to find a tension wrench that crowded the plug the least amount. Though taking up the keyway is one disadvantage, I find another disadvantage in how the tension is spread throughout the lock.



Also, from what it says in SuperPicking, BOK tension applies tension on the pins starting at the bottom of the keyway on the side the tension wrench is inserted, traveling diagonally to the top of the keyway on the other side of the plug. If a lock had it's front pins (1,2) theoretically bind first when turning CW with BOK tension, this would make it tough to bind a pin but not hard if a back pin theoretically binds first CCW on that same lock (with each pin being picked reducing the hardness of the lock being picked). I am, of course, not even factoring in the spool pins you were referring to in the lock you are working with, for simplicities sake. I may be wrong, I frequently am, but this is my understanding of the facts as I've found them presented to me. I've made the source for my opinion known as well. My purpose in this is not to persuade but to inform, I welcome any constructive criticism if I am wrong here ! Best of luck tomo18!

+1 @ Cledry, by the way.

[fgarci03]

+1 YouLuckyFox!
Very thorough, I like it

I just to point something out. If you notice the image, the Binding order CW is 1 5 2 4 3 and not 5 1 2 4 3
On that example they actually reverse themselves.

I get your point and it happens a lot of times, but to be 100% accurate, the 5th hole should be a little wider, like an oval shape. Or at least larger.
But that is minor. It's a very good writte up

Thanks for taking the time to do it

[YouLuckyFox]

Thanks fgarci03! It's funny how that worked out. I used the exact same size circles in the paint program I made it on, but when I drew the red line it did indeed appear to not be reverse . I say that only to explain my mistake, looks like the morning got the better of me . As I said, I welcome constructive criticism. The sad news is that in order to keep my previous post consistent (since I can't edit it) I had to just chop a little off the right of pin 1 here is an updated picture for the binding:


And for the picture of TOK tension, since it's link is now dead for some reason. If a Mod happens to walk this way, I'd appreciate it if the links be updated on the original post, but I understand that it would be asking a lot of an already busy individual!



I think it's good you pointed this out fgarci as I was responding to a newer member, it would be a shame to confuse someone who was just trying to figure out something new on the forum! Just because I'm already thanking you fgarci, I ought to also mention that it is always good to see how you lean on the side of less confrontation; I made a pretty glaring oversight and you were very nice about it, thanks for your positive attitude!

[fgarci03]

I think it's good you pointed this out fgarci as I was responding to a newer member, it would be a shame to confuse someone who was just trying to figure out something new on the forum! Just because I'm already thanking you fgarci, I ought to also mention that it is always good to see how you lean on the side of less confrontation; I made a pretty glaring oversight and you were very nice about it, thanks for your positive attitude!

Thank you for the kind words
I always try to do so, as I believe confrontation isn't the way to go. And we all make mistakes. In fact, I'm the king of making mistakes. And I also like to be pointed out nicely. Many people over here do so, fortunatelly. And I'm sorry when it looks like I'm being a smart-*ss. As you all know, it's difficult to express "jokes" in words even by using smilies. So I just want to point out that it's never my intention to do so

Fun fact: I did that exact same mistake on my blog. Got the binding order out of a picture wrong and only noticed when my gf was reviewing the post after I published it. Funny

[tomo18]

Yes! I managed to open it in the other direction!

I was spending approx. 15 minutes per day trying to open it. Each day I learned a little more. Yesterday I managed to open it for the first time in CCW direction and today I opened it multiple times in both CW and CCW directions. The lock has a completely different feel depending on the CW or CCW tension. Once I started to understand what's happening inside the lock, it opened. The binding order changed, but not in the exactly opposite order.

I'm looking forward to buying a quality plug spinner because it is difficult to open the lock in one direction, and really easy to open it in the other, so a plug spinner would help in such cases.

[Hugokhf]

I have experienced the same thing.
with a 1-pin lock. (don't laugh )

CCW, it is very easy, just push the pin up and it opens,
but in CW, it is completely different, I couldn't open the lock even if I push the pin up while apllying tension.
I opened it a few times by fluke though

not sure why

[Dogrocket]

I have experienced the same thing.
with a 1-pin lock. (don't laugh )

CCW, it is very easy, just push the pin up and it opens,
but in CW, it is completely different, I couldn't open the lock even if I push the pin up while apllying tension.
I opened it a few times by fluke though

not sure why

I actually had something similar with some practice locks (including a cutaway where I could see I was clearing the shear line) - what I found was that I was using too much tension, and my tension wrench was causing the cylinder to bind against the cylinder wall (I think my wrench was creating friction against the cylinder wall too).



Once I started laying off the tension this problem largely went away (Top of Keyway helped even more, since the tension is closer to the centerline)

[cledry]

Yes! I managed to open it in the other direction!

I was spending approx. 15 minutes per day trying to open it. Each day I learned a little more. Yesterday I managed to open it for the first time in CCW direction and today I opened it multiple times in both CW and CCW directions. The lock has a completely different feel depending on the CW or CCW tension. Once I started to understand what's happening inside the lock, it opened. The binding order changed, but not in the exactly opposite order.

I'm looking forward to buying a quality plug spinner because it is difficult to open the lock in one direction, and really easy to open it in the other, so a plug spinner would help in such cases.

I recommend the A1. Ive tried just about all plug spinners and this one has the best success for me.

[fgarci03]

I have this one: http://dx.com/p/klom-reversing-gun-16415

Isn't top quality, but has worked on every single lock I tried it on. If you are going to use it only sometimes I think this is a good cheap option. If you'll use many times, buy a decent one!

[GordonAlexander]

I am a locksmith, but a terrible picker. I have never NEEDED to pick anything open, so I simply never practiced or cared to learn. It is actually better to drill a lock for a locksmith, in most situations.

In the past few years I have let my ego drive me to learn how to pick more efficiently. I have been stumped recently with a brand new 6 pin Baldwin lock. It angered me I could pick a standard cylinder. But, I didn't let it stop me from getting into the residence in other ways. After that encounter I sat down and learned to pick high quality, tight tolerance cylinder with a rake or a diamond pick. I have found in some cylinders I can pick them to a certain side, but not the other. I concluded that the chamber orientation in a particular cylinder can favor it being picking to one side, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to pick it the other way.

I am glad to see you defeated the locks you have and it inspires me to work harder, but there are tricks if you are in a real life picking emergency and the cylinder will only turn one way. A plug spinner is the obvious choice, but if you don't have one it is tough. You can substitute a spinner for your tension wrench, and a rubber band. Turn the plug nearly back to home, and put the wrench all the way into the keyway on the bottom. Then slam that wrench with a rubber band(or anything really) so the wrench turns the cylinder to the other side. Not the best solution, but it works.