Probably breaking all the rules

[Worldway]

Hi, I have a quick question to ask. I know that this and other forums have strict guidelines about asking questions before doing a thorough search. I see this as a problem and an opportunity. I realize asking the same old questions take up additional memory and bandwidth but, as a past moderator of another site, I also know that the mods here, plus members, are waiting to jump in to answer questions. So I have spent probably 2 minutes searching, what I consider, a simple question. I couldn't find the answer. I could spend another 10 minutes searching but this is so much faster. I created this new thread to ask a question that has likely been asked several times in the past.

"How can you tell how many pins a lock has."

I apologize in advance if I have broken forum rules. I tried to read all the rules but, because I was excited about starting my new hobby I didn't read all the rules (has anyone ever really read the fine print on a contract or a bank loan?)

I don't mean to sound condesending or rude. I'm really a very nice person. It's just the last time I was excited about a new hobby I posted a question on their forum and got chewed out by a 3 month old member for not going to "search" first which put me off the hobby all together.

[Squelchtone]

Hi,

The post in this link will tell you everything you need to know about counting the number of pins in a lock:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=59986&p=441351


As you gain experience, you will also be able to tell how many pins a lock has just by knowing what brand and model deadbolt or padlock it is. Example: Master Lock No3 is 4 pins, Master No 140 is 5 pins, BEST SFIC core locks are 7 pins, and residential Schlage are 5 pins. You learn those things over time and after much practice.

Enjoy the forum
Squelchtone

[LocksportSouth]

Hi, I have a quick question to ask. I know that this and other forums have strict guidelines about asking questions before doing a thorough search. I see this as a problem and an opportunity. I realize asking the same old questions take up additional memory and bandwidth but, as a past moderator of another site, I also know that the mods here, plus members, are waiting to jump in to answer questions. So I have spent probably 2 minutes searching, what I consider, a simple question. I couldn't find the answer. I could spend another 10 minutes searching but this is so much faster. I created this new thread to ask a question that has likely been asked several times in the past.

"How can you tell how many pins a lock has."

I apologize in advance if I have broken forum rules. I tried to read all the rules but, because I was excited about starting my new hobby I didn't read all the rules (has anyone ever really read the fine print on a contract or a bank loan?)

I don't mean to sound condesending or rude. I'm really a very nice person. It's just the last time I was excited about a new hobby I posted a question on their forum and got chewed out by a 3 month old member for not going to "search" first which put me off the hobby all together.

Squelchtone has addressed the pins question (I'd also mention that if you have the lock, loose at home, you can always google it and probably find out all the details, if you don't know what brand it is you might be able to post a picture in a forum's "What's this lock?" kind of thread and people might be able to tell you - that's my contribution to this post ), however I'd like to address the rules stuff. (I realise that this is technically off-topic for this thread and at risk of getting moderated, which is ironic considering the content of my thoughts. Meta!)

Honestly, your post to me encapsulates my main issue with forums (not THIS forum, LP101, specifically - just forums in general). We all feel the need to watch ourselves and fear treading on eggshells, justifying our every action and providing evidence of prior research; I get a mini panic attack every time I post on a forum or board-type-place (SA, Reddit, whatever) because I'm terrified that I'll either unwittingly break a rule and face the wrath of the banhammer, or incite ire from other members who have taken issue with my post. The example I always use is that some places tell you not to "thread necro" - digging up old posts from a long time ago, and others tell you not to re-post things that have been discussed before. I've seen some forums (again, stressing NOT THIS FORUM, other forums) where BOTH of these complaints have been held. So, does that mean that if it's ever been discussed before, you can't ever talk about it again? Because no thread necro plus no new threads about old topics....

I used to run a forum (hosting & admin) as well as mod on a couple back and contribute as a normal member on a LOT of places in the day and honestly the atmosphere is the same wherever and whenever you go on the Internet as far as I can tell, and I don't know if it's something that can ever be "fixed" as long as there is a need for management structure and rules (no rules at all would cause anarchy, and SOMEONE has to admin the forum and deal with the flood of spam signups etc...), and maybe this is just my problem due to some anxiety issues but... Eh, just needed to vent.

Oh and on the pins topic, as long as it's a simple pin tumbler (Not sure if this would work on dimple, disc, side pins etc...) there's a little trick I use - use a pick (normal hook works well) to depress the front pin, then push back until it stops - there's your second pin. Push that one down and slide the pick back again until it stops, repeat this until you slide a LOT further back or hit a spring or whatever (depends on the lock) - as long as you keep count you can figure out how many pins there are by feel .

[Worldway]

Thanks for the information and the links. Also, thanks for the support. However, perhaps I didn't ask my question properly and the answer is even simpler. So far, because I'm new to this, all my locks have the keys. How can you tell how many pins a lock has by looking at the key? I would have thought the answer was obvious but looking at some keys I think I see more hills, valleys and ledges than what appears to be pins in the lock.

[Squelchtone]

Thanks for the information and the links. Also, thanks for the support. However, perhaps I didn't ask my question properly and the answer is even simpler. So far, because I'm new to this, all my locks have the keys. How can you tell how many pins a lock has by looking at the key? I would have thought the answer was obvious but looking at some keys I think I see more hills, valleys and ledges than what appears to be pins in the lock.

count the valleys. If you have a key that is really confusing or cut funny, then experience will tell you the spacing of the cuts on that particular lock, or you can post a pic on imgur.com and show us which key is giving you trouble.

Here's a pic of pins resting against key cuts, hope this helps: http://toool.us/deviant/01-operation/1.07-bitting_too_low_side.png

Squelchtone

[LocksportSouth]

Thanks for the information and the links. Also, thanks for the support. However, perhaps I didn't ask my question properly and the answer is even simpler. So far, because I'm new to this, all my locks have the keys. How can you tell how many pins a lock has by looking at the key? I would have thought the answer was obvious but looking at some keys I think I see more hills, valleys and ledges than what appears to be pins in the lock.

Normally, in a regular lock, it'll be the areas between the shoulder stop (the bit that sticks out near the bow - the head of the key) and the tip. Take the following image from Wikimedia:

Link to key

I'd say that lock has 5 pins. See the areas between the "peaks" on the key?

However, some locks are different - Some Assa cores, for instance the D12, has more cuts than actual pins to allow for different pinning combinations and different types of pins (the 12 refers to 12 cuts on the key, but there are only 6 pins - 2 cuts for each pin), and obviously dimple, disc detainer etc all use different systems. But to my knowledge, generally speaking, the count the dips between the peaks on the key to find the number of pins.

Edit: Changed the IMG link to URL as it was frickin' huge

[Worldway]

OK, so here is a really good example. I started with what I thought was a very easy and obvious question. Turns out that it wasn't that easy or obvious. So lock picking isn't the thing you see in movies. This is serious stuff. I tried to pick what I thought was a simple lock but failed. Time to apply myself a lot more. I've been doing this now for 3 days, so for the newbies, this isn't easy stuff.

I told a couple of close friends that I was going into the lock picking hobby and they thought that I was nuts and figured I planned to break into something. I can't pick a 60 year old door lock and they figure I'm going to tackle Fort Knox. People don't realize that this is a fun hobby but takes talent.

Oh well, back to the picks. (Now I sound like a 1880's prisoner breaking rocks)

[zeke79]

Keep after it! If ever in central southern il let me know. Beer is on you, locks on me!

It does get easier! It gets to the point that some medecos fall open while others seem possessed! Kind of like golf!

[GWiens2001]

Keep after it! If ever in central southern il let me know. Beer is on you, locks on me!

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

Before accepting, be sure you change that around - you provide locks and Zeke provides the beer! Bet he'd choose better beer to provide. But make sure you have some good locks in return in return.

Gordon

[zeke79]

And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for that pesky GWiens!

[Ralph_Goodman]

I also have trouble finding the proper thread when I am on the forum. Something happens where it starts to limit my results to keywords in recent posts. That might be because of the point on the site where I type in my search query. No idea.

My advice is to type the question into google. Lock Picking 101 is most likely going to be the first result, if not the first three results. If you want to make sure that you are getting this site specifically just put in your question and "Lock Picking 101". I know it has definitely shown me things I could not find with the search feature.

The problem with text based responses is that no one can read the tone, so things escalate quickly. A harmless question can be misinterpreted, or the response can be misinterpreted, and then there is a flame war. I think you did the right thing with your preface and afterward. I have most certainly done that...probably even on this forum (kind of doing it now). Wish it wasn't necessary, but we cannot live in the world of our wishes. Interesting topic and subtopic for sure.

Happy exploring!

[LocksportSouth]

I also have trouble finding the proper thread when I am on the forum. Something happens where it starts to limit my results to keywords in recent posts. That might be because of the point on the site where I type in my search query. No idea.

My advice is to type the question into google. Lock Picking 101 is most likely going to be the first result, if not the first three results. If you want to make sure that you are getting this site specifically just put in your question and "Lock Picking 101". I know it has definitely shown me things I could not find with the search feature.

Yesterday I was trying to find the "Your last pick" thread (may have seen this on another forum, in which case, my bad!) where people were discussing the last lock they successfully picked, as I'd just figured out the trick to getting all 6 pins on my practice lock (up straight away from 2 ) but I couldn't find it for love nor money - forum searched, Google searched, went subforum-by-subforum checking all the stickies.. Couldn't find it. Gave up in the end because I didn't want to start a new thread and get flamed for duplicating an existing thread

[Ralph_Goodman]

Yesterday I was trying to find the "Your last pick" thread (may have seen this on another forum, in which case, my bad!) where people were discussing the last lock they successfully picked, as I'd just figured out the trick to getting all 6 pins on my practice lock (up straight away from 2 ) but I couldn't find it for love nor money - forum searched, Google searched, went subforum-by-subforum checking all the stickies.. Couldn't find it. Gave up in the end because I didn't want to start a new thread and get flamed for duplicating an existing thread

The best part about really having a question, is that you will probably get a nice person sending you the link you couldn't find. But you will have to stomach a certain amount of personal attacks...or the less severe instance of non-helpful comments directing you to try things you have already tried. (I mean I am guilty of that.) Last ditch effort I think should be taking the unoriginal cracks of some weirdos that would take the time to comment and not help you and posting a new topic. (You don't have to read anything you don't want to. Stop yourself from going any further if the comment is inflammatory). Honestly most of the forum posts that get me what I want are posts where the top post is a link to the existing subforum. The mods on this site are so awesome, one of them will do the right thing.

Don't let the trolls win. When we start behaving based on the fear of their ultimately mealiness behavior, before you know it we will be at the UN complaining about how we are victims of cyber violence.

PS: I tried to find the post you are talking about. No luck. Hopefully someone might be able to find it for you. I would love to know how the people that always have the links get them...I might be doing something wrong (strong possibility). Are you sure it was called "Your last pick"? I was trying things like : "What was the last lock you picked" and expanding out. Sorry for not being much help. You seem like a cool dude. Hope no one gives you too much trouble.

Good Luck!

[LocksportSouth]

The best part about really having a question, is that you will probably get a nice person sending you the link you couldn't find. But you will have to stomach a certain amount of personal attacks...or the less severe instance of non-helpful comments directing you to try things you have already tried. (I mean I am guilty of that.) Last ditch effort I think should be taking the unoriginal cracks of some weirdos that would take the time to comment and not help you and posting a new topic. (You don't have to read anything you don't want to. Stop yourself from going any further if the comment is inflammatory). Honestly most of the forum posts that get me what I want are posts where the top post is a link to the existing subforum. The mods on this site are so awesome, one of them will do the right thing.

Don't let the trolls win. When we start behaving based on the fear of their ultimately mealiness behavior, before you know it we will be at the UN complaining about how we are victims of cyber violence.

PS: I tried to find the post you are talking about. No luck. Hopefully someone might be able to find it for you. I would love to know how the people that always have the links get them...I might be doing something wrong (strong possibility). Are you sure it was called "Your last pick"? I was trying things like : "What was the last lock you picked" and expanding out. Sorry for not being much help. You seem like a cool dude. Hope no one gives you too much trouble.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the support I appreciate it, and I know what you mean.. I don't think people are generally trolling (or I'm just really dense!), I think it's just a case of following rules to the letter and getting stuck in their ways. As I say this happens everywhere and I can generally spot trolls a mile off, my issue is probably being wayyyy to sensitive to others' opinions of me and such interactions. But there you go .

The thread.. I could have sworn it was called "your last pick", but Google gives me nothing. I did hunt around for some time but eventually figured it wasn't worth the bother - I'm not especially worried about finding it (I guess it's a pretty vein thing anyway, I was just feeling hyped about my achievement, such that it is, and wanted to share), it's just a good example of the 'forum fear culture', for lack of a better term.

Anyway, Ironically in a thread titled breaking all the rules, I'm aware that I'm at this point super off topic and probably should quit while I'm ahead (behind?) .

On topic: if you have the locks and the keys, you could also disassemble the cylinder and count the pins . I would say just count the pin holes but sometimes they don't fill every single hole...

[Squelchtone]

I also have trouble finding the proper thread when I am on the forum. Something happens where it starts to limit my results to keywords in recent posts. That might be because of the point on the site where I type in my search query. No idea.

My advice is to type the question into google. Lock Picking 101 is most likely going to be the first result, if not the first three results. If you want to make sure that you are getting this site specifically just put in your question and "Lock Picking 101". I know it has definitely shown me things I could not find with the search feature.

The problem with text based responses is that no one can read the tone, so things escalate quickly. A harmless question can be misinterpreted, or the response can be misinterpreted, and then there is a flame war. I think you did the right thing with your preface and afterward. I have most certainly done that...probably even on this forum (kind of doing it now). Wish it wasn't necessary, but we cannot live in the world of our wishes. Interesting topic and subtopic for sure.

Happy exploring!

this is a calm time for the forum, you should have been here in 2006 when newspapers wrote about the flame wars going on here. Last thing I like is people feeling unwelcome or flamed, but I do expect people to do research and put some effort in, seems we get our fair share of entitled brats here once every while, and I dont mind telling those folks where to go.

You're right about using google to search lp101, they crawl the forum much better than the phpbb search function, which I hope to improve by reindexing the SQL tables. That operation would take a few days and the forum would be very slow for everyone but I think its a worth while thing to do as long as we dont crash and have to rebuild during that process.

the best way to search google by the way is to type in whatever you're looking for and then include site:lockpicking101.com this command and the way i wrote it tells google to look ONLY at lockpicking101.com for those word combinations

example: how to make a bump key site:lockpicking101.com

example2: Schlage security pins site:lockpicking101.com

example3: Bogota sand paper grit site:lockpicking101.com

If your question is too complicated there is a chance google wont find an exact or appropriate match, so dont type too much in such as "how do I know which metal is best to make my own picks with" instead I would type in "best metal make picks site:lockpicking101.com"

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

PS. Are you guys looking for the thread What did you pick today? It is here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43287&p=455551#p455551