Can picking order be changed by replacing the plug?

[Thanshin]

Can one replace a plug and keep the housing? Would that change the pin picking order?

I'm practicing with a repinnable euro cutout. It can easily be pinned to and beyond the limit of my ability.

I started by removing the sixth pin, then I put it back, and now I put one spool pin. Every time I start by opening it while watching the pins and I follow opening it blind.

For now, I'm not playing with surprises, but I plan on telling my wife to put the pins in random order so I don't know where will each be.

However, there is something I can't change, the pin picking order. Therefore, the question with which I started the thread.

[Squelchtone]

Can one replace a plug and keep the housing? Would that change the pin picking order?

I'm practicing with a repinnable euro cutout. It can easily be pinned to and beyond the limit of my ability.

I started by removing the sixth pin, then I put it back, and now I put one spool pin. Every time I start by opening it while watching the pins and I follow opening it blind.

For now, I'm not playing with surprises, but I plan on telling my wife to put the pins in random order so I don't know where will each be.

However, there is something I can't change, the pin picking order. Therefore, the question with which I started the thread.

in short, yes, the new plug would have slightly different machining tolerances when it comes to the shapes of the pin chambers and their alignment along the length of the plug, but the only solution to your problem is to have the wife buy you more locks! =)

[Thanshin]

in short, yes, the new plug would have slightly different machining tolerances when it comes to the shapes of the pin chambers and their alignment along the length of the plug

And would switching the plugs from two locks create two "new locks"?

For example:
- If I have a lock with picking order 6,5,4,3,2,1 and another with 2,4,6,1,3,5.
And I switch the plugs
- Would I possibly/probably end up with at least one of the two "new" locks not having any of those two picking orders?

[Squelchtone]

in short, yes, the new plug would have slightly different machining tolerances when it comes to the shapes of the pin chambers and their alignment along the length of the plug

And would switching the plugs from two locks create two "new locks"?

For example:
- If I have a lock with picking order 6,5,4,3,2,1 and another with 2,4,6,1,3,5.
And I switch the plugs
- Would I possibly/probably end up with at least one of the two "new" locks not having any of those two picking orders?

doubtful that you would end up with an entirely new picking order on one or both of these locks, maybe a pin stack or two would change from 6 5 4 3 2 1 to something like 6 5 4 3 1 2 but I doubt it would suddenly become 1 2 3 4 5 6 or anything that drastic, plus this also depends on the quality of the lock materials and quality of the machining and tolerances, so if this is a $5 dollar do it yourself store deadbolt or is it a $200 dollar stainless steel Medeco deadbolt you might get totally different results.

[Thanshin]

doubtful that you would end up with an entirely new picking order on one or both of these locks, maybe a pin stack or two would change

Ok. Thank you.

I guess I'll have to find a way of buying more locks then. I think I'll start by visiting the city's open air flea market.

[Squelchtone]

doubtful that you would end up with an entirely new picking order on one or both of these locks, maybe a pin stack or two would change

Ok. Thank you.

I guess I'll have to find a way of buying more locks then. I think I'll start by visiting the city's open air flea market.

is money a problem or finding locks in your area? Where are you located? you should fill out your user profile location =)

We can probably offer suggestions of where to get used locks, places like http://www.ebay.es are good for used lock cylinders.

example: http://www.ebay.es/itm/171409940266

[Thanshin]

is money a problem or finding locks in your area? Where are you located?

I'm in the capital, so no location problems. Money's also not a problem, but I wouldn't want to buy one new lock with key if I could buy a box of old keyless discarded locks from a locksmith.

example: http://www.ebay.es/itm/171409940266

For example, that's 24€(with shipping) for an unused lock in it's original packaging.

[74TR6]

"....if I could buy a box of old keyless discarded locks from a locksmith...." Have you tried this source? For a variety of lock types and difficulty, this is usually a good solution and first place to search. Recently received 30+ mortise cylinder locks and a few padlocks for practice; all free

[Thanshin]

Have you tried this source? For a variety of lock types and difficulty, this is usually a good solution and first place to search. Recently received 30+ mortise cylinder locks and a few padlocks for practice; all free

I have located nearby lockpickers to go ask.

I must say I got the idea from reading. I don't understand the lockpicking business and have no idea why would lockpickers discard working locks. If they work, why not rekey them to sell for use? If they don't, how can we train lockpicking with them?

But even while ignorant of that point, I'll go ask, just in case.

[74TR6]

"... why would lockpickers discard working locks..."

From my experience, three reasons: time, money, and desire of the customer. Some times it is quicker to replace locks and a few times new cylinder is cheaper. On a lock out last week with four locks of two different brands, customer wanted all new locks. The customer is paying so we do as they ask

[Thanshin]

After going through a lot of "key copy" businesses, I found actual lockpickers.

They throw away locks but had none at the moment. It seemed to be more of a lockpickers call center/office, rather than the lockpickers themselves.

They've told me to go back in a month. They'll tell the actual lockpickers to save some discarded locks and maybe they'll have something for me.

I'll try the flea market next.

[Squelchtone]

After going through a lot of "key copy" businesses, I found actual lockpickers.

They throw away locks but had none at the moment. It seemed to be more of a lockpickers call center/office, rather than the lockpickers themselves.

They've told me to go back in a month. They'll tell the actual lockpickers to save some discarded locks and maybe they'll have something for me.

I'll try the flea market next.

I think you mean to use the word Locksmith not the word lockpicker. we are lockpickers, people who have shop and fix and install and sell locks are locksmiths.

cerrajeros = locksmiths

[Thanshin]

I think you mean to use the word Locksmith not the word lockpicker. we are lockpickers, people who have shop and fix and install and sell locks are locksmiths.

You're right. I meant locksmiths.

[Jacob Morgan]

in short, yes, the new plug would have slightly different machining tolerances when it comes to the shapes of the pin chambers and their alignment along the length of the plug, but the only solution to your problem is to have the wife buy you more locks! =)

Every explanation about how picking works involves tolerances, it might be good to dive into that a little deeper. Sorry for the long post, but it is a deep subject. The tolerances most people are familiar with are simple tolerances like what a carpenter might use, make an opening 24 inches wide, +/- 1/8th of an inch, etc. A lot of metal fabrication and even some machining does the same. But for industries where a high degree of interchangeability and tight fits are required there is an entirely different system of tolerancing used called Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing (GD&T). That is worth looking at because it helps understand what can go wrong in machining. Look up GD&T on Wikipedia to see how convoluted things can get.

For manipulation the weakness in locks is miss-alignment between the pin holes or chambers between the shell and the plug. The combination with the maximum difference in the left (or right, depending on the tension direction) edges of the pin holes will be the next pin to meet the shear line. It is the misalignment of centerlines (and possibly miss-shaped or wrong diameter holes and pins of different diameter too) between the shell and plug that make picking possible.

It is challenging to accurately drill a hole in something round (like a plug). Drill bits like to wander around on things, especially round things, before deciding to start actually drilling. Tool makers (when they make fixtures or gages accurate to amazing tolerances) always center punch first, and sometimes start a hole then use diamond point chisels to help move over where the hole will go if it did not start perfectly. If the hole diameter is important they will finish it with a reamer. Drill bits are not always the size they claim to be and, again, they only make mostly round holes. The point is, something as simple as drilling a hole is really difficult if precision is needed.

Ideally a fixture would be used to clamp down the plug and the fixture would have have drill guide bushings to help center the cutting tools. In the perfect world a center-drill would be used first, then a drill, then a reamer. And the workers would use SPC charts to track the hole diameters and change out the tooling when it starts to wear. Then a sample from every batch would go to an optical comparator. In each pin hole tight-fitting gauge pins would be inserted. An optical comparitor projects a magnified image onto a screen, on which is overlayed a mechanical drawing. The drawing would show the min-max position of each gauge pin, from the side and front of the plug. If a gauge pin was too far to the left, right, fore, or aft, or if it leaned too much in any direction, then the batch would be rejected and the tool maker called to fix the problem with the fixture at the drill. Better yet, if things were starting to drift off of the ideal geometry there would be some maintenance on the tooling. The same sort of process would be used with the shell. That would check the tolerances on the geometry of the parts. I think that would make a lock that would be difficult to pick. It would also be expensive.

The way they are probably made is a shell is either machined without a drill guide fixture and with only a drill bit, or it is die cast. If it is machined it probably is clamped in a fixture then the machine indexes it through each position where a hole is drilled. And it would be pricy to fix molds that are off or start to wear if it is cast. Plugs are also probably drilled only and drilled without a drill guide fixture. Probably the gages used to test parts would be a go/no-go gage with five or six pins sticking up, each pin being of a smaller then a larger diameter. The pins would be firmly fixed into a base. If a plug or cylinder can fit (the pin holes) onto the first part of the gauge it is a go, if it fits all the way to the second step of the pins it is a no-go, it it doesn't fit the gauge at all it is a no-go. If all plugs and shells pass then they should assemble correctly.

The problem using a go-no go gauge at the end of the line is that it is going to result in a lot of scrap if the process is not running correctly, that is where the bean counters and the designers have their argument about cost versus quality. The smaller the diameter the gage pins are, the more units or batches are passed. Worst case, the gage is set up to protect against non-functional locks only with no concern for manipulation resistance.

For the ultimate lock the plug and shell would be drilled and reamed together. Even better if a tight fitting pin was inserted into the first hole drilled to ensure it aligned with the other holes as they were made. I doubt anyone does that, keeping track of pairs of plugs and shells through manufacturing (washing off the machining coolant, electroplating, etc.) would be a pain. They would have to be serialized, and someone would have to sort them out before assembly.

Next time I order some parts I think I will pick up some more mortise cylinders and also get some top and bottom pins the next diameter larger that would work with whatever reamer MSC or Enco is selling that is slightly larger than the existing chambers. Then temporarily solder or clamp the plug in the shell then ream out the pin holes, then put in the new pins. The point being to bring the pin holes in the plugs and shells into good alignment by reaming them out together.

[kwoswalt99-]

Drill bits are not always the size they claim to be and, again, they only make mostly round holes. The point is, something as simple as drilling a hole is really difficult if precision is needed.

A lot of the inaccuracy of twist drills is caused by them not being sharpened perfectly.
After some searching, I still couldn't find what type of machine or fixture they drill the plugs and cylinders with.