New "Flat Key" Kryptonites/Similar Locks

[v12v12]

After reading up on the old Tubular Kryptos and seeing tons of people run for the shopping hills and others claim it's a myth, I got my own 2 kryptos and POP! They both sprang open in under a minute! Wow, even the famous "NYC-Chain" of sanctuary was released from its feeble Krypto shackle. But what about the new ones — those flat-key one's that of course are soaking with "Unpickable" "Highest security" labels from the Kryptonite Marketers?
I checked one out on a local rack and it looks like a warded entrance way, with discs/wafers. Many people were complaining that you have to push in the key all the way to neural set the discs/wafers, and then you can open the lock. So just how secure is this supposed new locking scheme? I don't see any current picks that could pick one since it is advertised as internal-double-sided locking. Would you have to pick both sides simultaneously? The reason I ask is it seems that since the exposure of the Tubular Kryptonites, now all the copy-cat and even competitive Lock makers have switched to this new style of lock & key. Literally everyone dumped the Tubular for the "flat-key" style. I would trust those either, but what do you all think?

[TOWCH]

My understanding is Kryptonite has begun using Abus Granite style disc locks, if not licensed them. John Falle makes a decoder for the Abus Granite, however, if it will work on non Abus brand knockoffs is unknown to me. I have one of these knockoffs, non-kryptonite style, and the key is smaller. I am making a decoder for these at the moment with exchangable pick heads, tension heads, and decoding markings.

[vector40]

Just a quick correction, I believe it's Abus Granit (no e).

[v12v12]

My understanding is Kryptonite has begun using Abus Granite style disc locks, if not licensed them.

---Ah thanks for the reply! Abus style huh, sounds difficult, which is good for the locks and bad for my attempts to pick one and not going nuts!

John Falle makes a decoder for the Abus Granite, however, if it will work on non Abus brand knockoffs is unknown to me.

---Decoder eh... hrmm since I'm pretty new to this stuff, that means I'll have to read up on just what that encompasses.

I have one of these knockoffs, non-kryptonite style, and the key is smaller. I am making a decoder for these at the moment with exchangable pick heads, tension heads, and decoding markings.

--- Exchangeable pick/tension heads!? Sounds very advanced, I would love to see pics or some kind of diagram of your project! Would you happen to have an internal diagram/picture of what these flat-key system's look like? And on your knock-off, does the key have the groves (on both sides) further down the shaft of it or some close and further away? I cannot seem to find much info about this newly integrated locking system....

Having pins/discs on opposite sides of a lock would make picking it a pain in the arse! Since you'd have to have constant tension, and 2 picking instruments, and obviously nobody has 3 hands to hold all this stuff... but the down fall would be the 2x size increase of the locking mechanism, since both sides would have all the space hogging internals - springs, security pins, etc...

[TOWCH]

The disc tumblers are circular, with a rectangular hole in the center to interact with the key, and sit inside a shell with a slot milled down the side of it. There are spacers seperating the discs, and the back disc is rotated to the correct distance, it tries to turn the shell. In the slot milled down the side of the shell, is a round metal sidebar that protrudes from the shell unless the discs are aligned properly allowing the bar to fall into their gates. When the shell is rotated, the bar hits the lockcase, and is forced against the tumblers, unless they are aligned properly, the bar prevents further shell rotation. If they are aligned, it drops down, and the shell continutes to rotate operating the locking mechanism.

As for my decoder, it's not finished yet. Saying anymore would be a bit premature.

[v12v12]

The disc tumblers are circular, with a rectangular hole in the center to interact with the key, and sit inside a shell with a slot milled down the side of it. There are spacers seperating the discs, and the back disc is rotated to the correct distance, it tries to turn the shell. In the slot milled down the side of the shell, is a round metal sidebar that protrudes from the shell unless the discs are aligned properly allowing the bar to fall into their gates. When the shell is rotated, the bar hits the lockcase, and is forced against the tumblers, unless they are aligned properly, the bar prevents further shell rotation. If they are aligned, it drops down, and the shell continutes to rotate operating the locking mechanism.

As for my decoder, it's not finished yet. Saying anymore would be a bit premature.

Hrmm... Since I'm newish at this I'm having a hard time visualizing just what you're saying, but I do understand...

This is off topic, but just what are these pins made of? If a thief is going to attack something on a lock such as this one or any high-alloy content lock, wouldn't the "weakest link" be the 1st and only accessible place IE: the KEYSLOT? While the rest of the lock is made from Solid Steel, or Boron-Manganese, Molybdenum-Steel - surely the lock itself isn't. What are typical springs and pins made from, couldn't someone just brute-force turn and strip/yank out the lock core itself? Unless it too is made from the same exotic materials (which would add much more cost b/c of the intricacies and detail needed to mill and cast more/smaller parts) I'd assume some kind of cheap brass/copper alloys?

Sorta like taking a durable screw-driver head, inserting into the disc barrel, and like on a Tap and Die handle, but much longer for leverage, Forcing the whole thing to strip or snap the pins out and Pop it opens? It seems like such a logical place and method of attack for this type of lock? Those pins aren't very thick either - so why would a thief waste effort trying to produce a 15000lb shackle snapping force or the same in prying when I assume that a turning force of MUCH much less is required to snap some measly brass pins? It seems so vulnerable Vs attacking say 1/2" or more of solid metal.

Sorry to ask so much... Just curious about lock design in general... thanks

[TOWCH]

It's a matter of leverage. You're trying to force a steel sidebar, into what's essentially a full inch of brass, using a brass disc to apply the force. The back disc of the lock will shear off it's point of contact with the shell before the sidebar even dents the rest of the tumblers. That would be if you could find a means of applying that much rotational force, without breaking it off in the lock.

[vector40]

However, you're not wrong when it comes to ordinary pin tumblers.

[v12v12]

Hrmm OH the sidebar! I think I see what you're saying about this type of lock... I'm still trying to picture this whole sidebar thing, but I see what you're saying - that essentially the sidebar is like an extra stress buffer, preventing a normal rotational attack which is basically limited by the pins ONLY (?). Yeah steel + another softer medium doesn't lend well for snapping.

I'd have to get out my physics books, but say a tool like this would produce MASSIVE rotational torque in a mere snap of your arms: A thief is all about consealment so something like a fire hydrant wrench would be out of the question. But based on the same principle with a very durable insert and a 30" bar to turn say 1/2" radius on a 1/4 thick insersion tool would turn at least ~several 1000lbs of rotational force, surely enough to sheer pins and at least servely damage a thin side bar.

Only reason I bring this up is it seems like a very obvious attack method and the lock chamber style itself almost invites something like this. Another factor is concealing the tool, which wouldn't take much since the bar's could either be collapseable or stackable on each other. But this isn't much of a problem for normal keyed locks since the insertion tool would be much too small to standup to the twisting force. When I saw one of those Kryptonite lock key ways, I thought - WHOA! It's a very large and deep keyway! That's never good. Unless you've got a prison door sized locking mechanism.
Soon as kryptonite and other copy-cat makes switched to this newer style chamber, everyone ditched their old tubulars and got one, least around here. Now people think they are uber safe b/c they read all the hype about this new style and all the marketing of "unpickable, blah blah" Which just invites a cleaver group of campus thieves to innovate and attack Vs if people just bought strong chains/hasps and Locks like Abus, American, Sargent, Medeco, which have their own flaws, least they are not very well known and not easily reproduceable by the average group of hoodlums. But normal people don't read up on quality locks, they just get what their friends recommend, which are usually sub-par locks at best.
Thanks all for replying!

[Dimmy Locks]

[quote="TOWCH"]The disc tumblers are circular, with a rectangular hole in the center to interact with the key, and sit inside a shell with a slot milled down the side of it. There are spacers seperating the discs, and the back disc is rotated to the correct distance, it tries to turn the shell. In the slot milled down the side of the shell, is a round metal sidebar that protrudes from the shell unless the discs are aligned properly allowing the bar to fall into their gates. When the shell is rotated, the bar hits the lockcase, and is forced against the tumblers, unless they are aligned properly, the bar prevents further shell rotation. If they are aligned, it drops down, and the shell continutes to rotate operating the locking mechanism.

Sounds pretty much like a really cheap padlock I came across on a customers bike chain . Its based on TIBBE locks design commonly fitted to Ford and some Jaguar european cars. If it is, then once you've discovered what your pick SHOULD look like, and exactly how the discs should align themselves to allow the drop bar to drop into the cutaways to the disks, these locks will pick in nano seconds. ( Once i discovered the discs in that padlock, I nipped to same shop she got hers from, bought a copy lock after finding a key with the right cut in the right place . i then created a pick from that key to open the customers lock. It would have been actually a lot quicker just to remove the bung pin that locks the discs in place, but i went to the extra trouble of creating a pick as it was a slow day, and well, whats the fun in locksmithing if the 1st tool you reach for is the cordless drill Sorry, I'm not prepared to explain what the pick should look like or how the principle of how these disk type locks work in an open forum, seeing as similar locks are fitted to cars too.

[v12v12]

Sounds pretty much like a really cheap padlock I came across on a customers bike chain . Its based on TIBBE locks design commonly fitted to Ford and some Jaguar european cars. If it is, then once you've discovered what your pick SHOULD look like, and exactly how the discs should align themselves to allow the drop bar to drop into the cutaways to the disks, these locks will pick in nano seconds.

---Do you happen to have some kind of diagram of what the innards of such a lock looks like? I think I'm finally starting to get what the discs look like in regard to the side bar. Is the bar literally on the side or does it drop from the top of the lock into the disc groves, which then permits further movement? Like a staging type of access? Or is the sidebar itself a static object that doesn't actually rotate, it just facilitates rotation of the discs?

( Once i discovered the discs in that padlock, I nipped to same shop she got hers from, bought a copy lock after finding a key with the right cut in the right place . i then created a pick from that key to open the customers lock. It would have been actually a lot quicker just to remove the bung pin that locks the discs in place, but i went to the extra trouble of creating a pick as it was a slow day, Sorry, I'm not prepared to explain what the pick should look like or how the principle of how these disk type locks work in an open forum, seeing as similar locks are fitted to cars too.

---Ah so you are sort of talking about a by-pass tool like for the Americans (a la Peterman?)

[Dimmy Locks]

ok, heres a general impression of how many disc locks work.

imagine an inner core plug with a slot cut out of it.
this slot lines up with a similar slot in the outer core.
In this slot sits a roll bar. like a roller bearing. this is free floating, no springs etc acting on it.
the discs sit in the inner core so their edges are applying pressure to the side of the roll bar which then holds the roll bar through the slot in the inner core and against the slot in the outer casing and thus "jamming" the core to the outer casing.. therfore it's preventing the inner core plug from rotating.
Slots are cut into the side of each disc at various places around the edges.
if all the disks are rotated inside the inner core so that these slots then allign with the roll bar the roll bar will drop freely into these slots, and away from the outer core slot, enabling the inner core to rotate.

so if u can imagine the roll bar is either half in inner core plug and half in outer core ( the locked position) or half in inner core and half in disc cut outs (the unlocked position).

I've been very careful how I've described how these types of lock work due to some applications where they are used. and therefore haven't described how each disk slot determines its code or how the key actually lines up the slots. I've simply tried to allow you to imagine how it physically appears.

[Mad Mick]

Good description Dimmy, and I understand the cautious approach.
However, if v12 had done a little researching of locks which use disks, then searched, he'd have found this thread which has some excellent pictures of Abloy locks stripped and partially stripped.

Scroll down to Cormu's fourth post:
viewtopic.php?t=415&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Due to the nature of these types of lock, there aren't very many people who can pick them manually.

[n2oah]

I have a great video on the explaination of the Abloy, but it is still on my mini DV camera.

[Mad Mick]

...and there's food still on the back of aid-trucks, destined to feed the starving in impoverished nations. Both are doing little good where they are.