Combination padlock with key lockout

[jwhou]

If you're looking for a reasonably cheap safe recommendation (which seems to be where this thread has drifted)... Sentry has recently discontinued a model (V330) that is actually pretty reasonable, and still available in some stores.

It's about $100, and while it offers no fire protection, it's a far higher standard of security than the majority of their models. (It has proper welded steel construction, a keyed lock that's at least better than a Kwikset, and a mechanical combination lock that's a grade up from their usual model.) I wouldn't call it "high security", but it's far better than most of what you'd find the "under $200" category.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep it in mind as it does appear to be a nice safe. I had already purchased an inexpensive electronic Bunker Hill safe and though it certainly has it's shortcomings, it seems to be sufficient as a theft deterrent. I think my next step along those lines will be to reinforce my walk in closet and put in some file cabinets in there.

I was just curious as to why less expensive options involving padlocks weren't widely available especially with young people often sharing accommodations. When I searched along the lines of dorm safes, and vacation vaults, what I found were all fairly lacking in that none addressed the fundamental problem of a brute force attempt on combination locks and the possession problem of keys Some products such as Vaultz used combination locks commonly found on briefcases instead of anything actually useful but at least they have a product with a laptop style universal security slot. I was really surprised to see a lack of cash boxes with universal security slot or other cabling options and a lack of cash boxes with hasps, of course both hasp and slot are easy to install. It still seems that the lowest cost option would be a metal toolbox with a couple of padlock hasps. Nothing is going to stop a professional thief, fortunately, most are just untrustworthy amateurs. I guess if one could find a metal box with two hasps suitable for hockey puck style locks, you could actually wind up with something that looks serious and not like a hokey contraption bound with chains and duct tape (I saw a safe in Saudi Arabia locked with a padlock on a hasp and wrapped in duct tape once, looked like the duct tape provided most of the security as the hasp screws appear to have been pulled out before).

[Evan]

Well, I think that the original thought of whether or not there's a padlock with a key lock out has pretty much panned out as a no, maybe a different approach. Obviously if something had two hasps, it could be locked with both a keyed padlock and a combination lock to achieve the security concept of something you have and something you know. Then the question would be are there any double hasps, strong boxes with two hasps, or some device that allows a single hasp to be locked by two padlocks?

I do see a legitimate use for these devices particularly in shared accommodation, dorm situations. A combination lock would be subjected to combinations being tried out while a key would be subject to being surreptitiously borrowed. Padlocks also have the convenience of allowing the easy attachment of a security cable to provide some nominal form of anchoring. I've been advising people to just have two padlocks, one keyed and one combination and swap them out when appropriate but I think having them both in use all the time helps to minimize the human error factor.

One would think that in all these centuries, surely every variation on padlocks must've been attempted at some point in time but I guess there still must be room for new ideas. Maybe a hockey puck hidden shackle dial combination lock, anyone seen anything like that?

@ jwhou:

It seems as if you lost hope too early... Are you Ok with using TWO padlocks on the same hasp ? One locking into a part on the other...

The lock which would be used to secure the hasp would be a BEST B11 series padlock with the ZZ option which is "Double Lockout/Safety First"... It is a padlock body with an extended skirt with holes bored across where you would use the key to unlock it for securing two additional locks to block the operation of the key to unlock the first lock... You would use the Best keyed padlock to secure the container and then block the key from entering it by using a combination padlock secured through the blocking holes in the padlock body...

The lock I am recommending is found on Page 6 of the Best Access Systems B-Series (padlocks) product catalog found on their website at:

bestaccess.com/media/2010/B.pdf <-- just copy and pate that link into your browser...

That looks to me to be almost exactly what you were looking for but I wanted to wait and see what other options people offered up here before contributing this... Best padlocks are not known for being cheap, and this lock looks like something a locksmith would have to special order, plus the cost of adding an SFIC and the extra combination padlock which would have to have a shackle clearance of at least 1¼" in order to be used with the Best B11-ZZ option double lockout padlock... Something along the lines of a Master 1500LF (1½" clearance) or 1500LH (2" clearance) combination padlock which are also something which would have to be special ordered unless you go to a lock shop or distributor which stocks many Master Lock products...

Good enough solution ? The list prices on the aforementioned lock products escapes me as it has been a while since I have had to deal with ordering locks and while I have seen such a Best padlock in real life I wasn't involved in its purchase so I don't know what it cost...

~~ Evan

[jwhou]

Well, I think that the original thought of whether or not there's a padlock with a key lock out has pretty much panned out as a no, maybe a different approach. Obviously if something had two hasps, it could be locked with both a keyed padlock and a combination lock to achieve the security concept of something you have and something you know. Then the question would be are there any double hasps, strong boxes with two hasps, or some device that allows a single hasp to be locked by two padlocks?

I do see a legitimate use for these devices particularly in shared accommodation, dorm situations. A combination lock would be subjected to combinations being tried out while a key would be subject to being surreptitiously borrowed. Padlocks also have the convenience of allowing the easy attachment of a security cable to provide some nominal form of anchoring. I've been advising people to just have two padlocks, one keyed and one combination and swap them out when appropriate but I think having them both in use all the time helps to minimize the human error factor.

One would think that in all these centuries, surely every variation on padlocks must've been attempted at some point in time but I guess there still must be room for new ideas. Maybe a hockey puck hidden shackle dial combination lock, anyone seen anything like that?

@ jwhou:

It seems as if you lost hope too early... Are you Ok with using TWO padlocks on the same hasp ? One locking into a part on the other...

The lock which would be used to secure the hasp would be a BEST B11 series padlock with the ZZ option which is "Double Lockout/Safety First"... It is a padlock body with an extended skirt with holes bored across where you would use the key to unlock it for securing two additional locks to block the operation of the key to unlock the first lock... You would use the Best keyed padlock to secure the container and then block the key from entering it by using a combination padlock secured through the blocking holes in the padlock body...

The lock I am recommending is found on Page 6 of the Best Access Systems B-Series (padlocks) product catalog found on their website at:

bestaccess.com/media/2010/B.pdf <-- just copy and pate that link into your browser...

That looks to me to be almost exactly what you were looking for but I wanted to wait and see what other options people offered up here before contributing this... Best padlocks are not known for being cheap, and this lock looks like something a locksmith would have to special order, plus the cost of adding an SFIC and the extra combination padlock which would have to have a shackle clearance of at least 1¼" in order to be used with the Best B11-ZZ option double lockout padlock... Something along the lines of a Master 1500LF (1½" clearance) or 1500LH (2" clearance) combination padlock which are also something which would have to be special ordered unless you go to a lock shop or distributor which stocks many Master Lock products...

Good enough solution ? The list prices on the aforementioned lock products escapes me as it has been a while since I have had to deal with ordering locks and while I have seen such a Best padlock in real life I wasn't involved in its purchase so I don't know what it cost...

~~ Evan

Extra long shackle to fit through two padlock bodies, the thought had occurred to me but I guess I never made any note. Thanks for pointing out some models that would work with that scheme.

[Evan]

Extra long shackle to fit through two padlock bodies, the thought had occurred to me but I guess I never made any note. Thanks for pointing out some models that would work with that scheme.

Extra long shackle clearance because the combination padlock has to be able to be locked across the bottom of the lock body of the Best B11 ZZ option padlock... You need the additional shackle clearance because the Best padlock is 25/32" thick and you would not be able to use the standard Master 1500 combo lock which only has a shackle clearance of 3/4" which would not allow the lock to be locked in place on something thicker than 3/4"...

~~ Evan

[jwhou]

Extra long shackle to fit through two padlock bodies, the thought had occurred to me but I guess I never made any note. Thanks for pointing out some models that would work with that scheme.

Extra long shackle clearance because the combination padlock has to be able to be locked across the bottom of the lock body of the Best B11 ZZ option padlock... You need the additional shackle clearance because the Best padlock is 25/32" thick and you would not be able to use the standard Master 1500 combo lock which only has a shackle clearance of 3/4" which would not allow the lock to be locked in place on something thicker than 3/4"...

~~ Evan

OK, that's different from what I was thinking and I'm having difficulty envisioning it. I first thought it was something like an adjustable shackle that would pass through one lock body and into another if the shackles were sufficiently standard and interchangeable. Sounds like you're talking about a product intended for a safety lockout requiring two locks, I'm not sure how that would work, I thought that was often done with lockboxes that could be locked by multiple locks and they would just lock the key to the lockout lock in that lockbox. Also, a lot of safety lockout products are not hardened against cutting and may be as simple as a twist tie. I'll read through the pdf file again and see if I can envision it.

[femurat]

I think that Evan idea is great!

The Best padlock that he suggests is a very good one. It's labelled "Safety First" to show its purpose but it isn't less strong than others Best padlocks.

Cheers

[jwhou]

I think I got how the Best ZZ featured padlock works now, just needed the sleep to see it. The second padlock fits through holes at the bottom of the Best lock blocking the keyway to the Best lock. Seems like a pretty good way to require both key and combination to open something. I wonder if adjustable shackles extending through one lock into another would work too?