defeated by a kwikset

[criminalhate]

-human punching bag

How does a cop get sucked into that one.

[globallockytoo]

There is a HUGE difference between some kid picking his Mom's front door and a police officer, at the bequest of his Sargent, aiding the department in a welfare check.

So I presume you condone police officers performing tasks they are not trained for?

I wouldnt want to be the insurance company for them.

If the police officer is a bonafide locksmith....fair enough....but a hobbiest? c'mon man! really?

Sir,

I'm not trying to start any trouble here. I see your point of view. I'm not a trained locksmith by any means, but it is a niche in Law Enforcement that I feel is legitimate.

Also, on a lighter note, here are some other occupations that I routinely perform on an amateur basis:

-stunt man
-taxi driver
-human punching bag
-boxer/wrestler
-marriage counselor
-child psychologist / surrogate parent
-family therapist
-driving instructor
-suicide hotline operator
-dog catcher

I believe it also to be a niche in law enforcement too. But, I suggest that the police departments would gain far more credibility by working with the locksmith community, instead of directly and indirectly stealing their work.

Many police officers are decent honest people yet there are many who are also not. Putting the tools and knowledge of a locksmith into their hands is wrong in my opinion, just as if a citizen who is not a trained and authorized police officer should not become a vigilante or place people under arrest.

I have worked for many police departments over the years and they would call me because I offered total skilled and knowledgeable services at super-competitive prices. When I heard of one department buying lock picking tools for it's officers I started refusing to service them or started charging significantly higher prices. The chief called me to ask why they could not get services. I told him that it was because he had enabled his department to bypass my livelihood and take food from my childrens table.

Did it work? YES!

[mhole]

I see your arguement, but I also see the police side. It simply isn't feasible for a police officer to call a locksmith on all occasions when the ability to effect entry would be beneficial. It's also far more cost effective to have some lockpicking potential in house, for occasions where you can't justify the expence of an outside contractor. In the example that the OP gave earlier, the subject of the welfare check would have died if he hadn't been on site, because the call didn't merit a destructive entry, or getting in a locksmith 'just in case'.

The police officer isn't going to replace the locksmith, and I think you were kind of throwing your toys out the pram by adopting an all or nothing position. If you can really be replaced by an officer with a set of picks, your srvices can't have been worth much in the first place. Obviously this wasn't the case in your situation, as they still wanted your services or they wouldn't have continued to try and book you. Surely some work is better than none?

You seem to forget that the aim of the police is to protect and service the wider community, not to put food on *your* childs table.

[Squirrel_Cop]

you know what, I was really hoping to not have to suffer through another series of cop-bashing threads. There are plenty of forums online for that kind of garbage. I didn't join this board to defend what I do. I joined it to be involved with persons of similar interests in the technical side of lock bypassing.

Sir, if you are going to imply that police officers shouldn't be trusted with the knowledge of lock picking, because there are "many" dishonest ones, than I am not going to waste my time with you. I will ignore your future comments, and I thank you not to interrupt my threads in the future. I hope you are successful in life and that you can have a good working relationship with officers in your community. But it is apparent that there is an underlying anger towards police officers that extends beyond professional conflict.

May I offer a suggestion? Why not set up a training program for your local police departments. Its a win-win situation. You get paid for training officers, and can help them understand when it will be necessary to bring in a professional. In this way, you will have a strong relationship with the local departments, and will probably see more calls for service in the long run. I would wager that the several hundred dollars you would gain from each student would be far more than the fees collected by their individual calls for service.

just my $.02

[Schuyler]

We have members here who do train police! I haven't had the pleasure myself, but extended an open line of communication to my local police once I started up public classes in Somerville.

And don't worry, bashing, as a rule, isn't allowed on this forum. Glad to have you with us.

[Squelchtone]

There is a HUGE difference between some kid picking his Mom's front door and a police officer, at the bequest of his Sargent, aiding the department in a welfare check.

So I presume you condone police officers performing tasks they are not trained for?

I wouldnt want to be the insurance company for them.

If the police officer is a bonafide locksmith....fair enough....but a hobbiest? c'mon man! really?

LEOs are some of the few professionals who can and should be able to pick when needed. Tow truck drivers, auto mechanics, firemen, alarm installers (wafer locks on alarm panels), phone repair techs (wafer locks on equipment racks), company maintenance guys (wafer locks on equipment panels), and FBI agents should as well, none are locksmiths, but the skill is applicable in their jobs.

I could see the whole bonafide/insured thing and accidentally breaking a door lock while picking it on a call and having the owner sue the dept/city, but would they rather get sued for a $100 lock repair or an $800 dollar busted down door and door frame?

And honestly, most of us hobbyist types are much better pickers than most people who call themselves "bonafide locksmiths" not all, but most. Hell, my Medeco dealer insists that a spool pin and a mushroom pin is the exact same thing.

let the man pick, its a good skill to have for people in his line of work. I'm sure his dept still calls a real locksmith when they need to get into some place that has nice locks and need to be drilled or picked in a pinch.

OP: Just don't market yourself to your higher ups as if you can pick any lock you come across, or you will find them calling you for every locked door, including high security locks, which you will just have to call a key holder for or a locksmith or kick a door or break a window.

Squelchtone

[MacGyver101]

Putting the tools and knowledge of a locksmith into their hands is wrong in my opinion, just as if a citizen who is not a trained and authorized police officer should not become a vigilante or place people under arrest.

My local police officers walk around with firearms... so, personally, I'd be willing to trust them to use equal discretion with their lockpicks.

I think this has perhaps been blown a bit out of proportion. If you start reading about the police responding to emergency "I need my building rekeyed" calls, then the locksmith industry might have something worth worrying about.

[Squirrel_Cop]

-human punching bag

How does a cop get sucked into that one.

Not everyone complies when being arrested

[globallockytoo]

Putting the tools and knowledge of a locksmith into their hands is wrong in my opinion, just as if a citizen who is not a trained and authorized police officer should not become a vigilante or place people under arrest.

My local police officers walk around with firearms... so, personally, I'd be willing to trust them to use equal discretion with their lockpicks.

I think this has perhaps been blown a bit out of proportion. If you start reading about the police responding to emergency "I need my building rekeyed" calls, then the locksmith industry might have something worth worrying about.

I'm quite sure you will find in many/most cities in the USA, the police will respond to many car or home lockout situations. I listen to the local police scanner (through an iPhone app) and the quantity of calls that police respond to for car lockouts is surprisingly numerous (and i'm in a smaller city)

[MacGyver101]

I'm quite sure you will find in many/most cities in the USA, the police will respond to many car or home lockout situations.

Interesting. It's definately different up here. Unless there's a baby trapped in the car or house (or some similar emergency), I'd expect the police operator to tell me to get lost if I called for that sort of assistance in Toronto. (Although it's likely much more common in smaller towns that you'd get help.)

[Squelchtone]

My name is Squelchtone, I AM the scanner guy.. I've been listening for .. like 16 years and when I say listening I mean about 12 hours a day. I never hear police coming to home lockouts. Cars yes, and I'll even hear one squad car call another and ask if "you have a tool in your trunk" and the other officer will reply and show up to help, (with a slim jim or reach across tool) usually some old lady at the mall or something. But people never have the cops go to their driveway or house for lockouts, and I would hope the dispatchers would tell them to go call a locksmith, unless like Mac said it involved a kid in a car on a hot day or an old person locked out in a snowstorm.

Squelchtone

[Squirrel_Cop]

My name is Squelchtone, I AM the scanner guy.. I've been listening for .. like 16 years and when I say listening I mean about 12 hours a day. I never hear police coming to home lockouts. Cars yes, and I'll even hear one squad car call another and ask if "you have a tool in your trunk" and the other officer will reply and show up to help, (with a slim jim or reach across tool) usually some old lady at the mall or something. But people never have the cops go to their driveway or house for lockouts, and I would hope the dispatchers would tell them to go call a locksmith, unless like Mac said it involved a kid in a car on a hot day or an old person locked out in a snowstorm.

Squelchtone

pretty much sums it up completely.

[criminalhate]

Not everyone complies when being arrested

LOL I wasn't thinking like that, I was thinking more along the lines of boxing gloves and you standing there getting hit....


Anyways your example makes a lot more sense.

[Evan]

There is a HUGE difference between some kid picking his Mom's front door and a police officer, at the bequest of his Sargent, aiding the department in a welfare check.

This.

On another occasion, several years ago, a similar welfare-check call went out. I monitored the call on the radio, and went to the scene after the officers were unable to find a key-holder for the apartment. The circumstances of the call weren't such as to authorize a forced, destructive entry. I picked the lock successfully and located a woman who had attempted suicide by cutting her wrists and failed, she had then overdosed herself on medications and was fading out in her bed. Had I not picked the lock, she would have certainly died, because the officers were planning on leaving the scene.

Yup...

It is situations like this on private property where the landlord is not omnipresent to be able to unlock a door in an emergency in a timely manner and a desire to not have to cause unneeded damage which is behind many AHJ's requiring a Knox rapid entry keybox near the main entry to the building... The fire department can then open any door they need using the copy of the landlord's master key secured inside the lockbox...

~~ Evan