Your thoughts on using #1 master pins?

[corey2444]

I've been told by a couple of people that using #1 Master pins is not a good idea. I have master key pro from keysoft, but I cannot find an option for not using #1 master pins. I know HPC has this option to not use #1's. Supposedly after time the #1 pins wear down and end up getting jammed between the plug and the housing. I can see this happening on a kwikset in chamber 1 where the key has a lot of up & down slop in the keyway. In other locks like Schlage I would not think this would be a problem being a more precise lock.

[Evan]

corey2444:

You should not use a #1 master pin in Schlage locks because Schlage locks use a difference of only .015" between different bitting depths... In a properly designed Schlage master key system you would use a two-step progression in any individual pinning chamber... This means that out of the ten depths of 0 through 9 only five of them would be available in a given chamber, either 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 if it is using the odd depths or 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 if it is using the even depths...

As far as your master key pro software from Keysoft it is correct in not allowing you to try and design a Schlage master keying system using #1 master pins...

If you are curious about master key systems in which using #1 master pins would be allowable, check out a single-step progression system like a BEST A3 or A4 master key system or a Corbin-Russwin System 70 master key system...

You have a lot more to learn about master keying so you can become truly familiar with it -- right now it sounds as if you have the pinning techniques learned and are merely following the charts that your software is printing out for you... That can be OK as long as you are absolutely sure of the bitting system being used by the locks you are working on, however it could be dangerous if you are working on locks which have multiple available bitting systems and you specify an incorrect one for the software to make a system for which doesn't match the one in use... You still have a lot to learn about master keying though...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

I have master key pro from keysoft, but I cannot find an option for not using #1 master pins. I know HPC has this option to not use #1's.

After re-reading your post, I have a question for you:

Are you specifying "Schlage" for the system manufacturer? If you are, then your software has either had its default settings tampered with or came incorrectly configured... If you added the information in yourself, it sounds as if you have not properly set up the customized settings for the lock manufacturer in question...

#1 master pins should not be used with locks which require a two-step progression...

~~ Evan

[corey2444]

After re-reading your post, I have a question for you:

Are you specifying "Schlage" for the system manufacturer? If you are, then your software has either had its default settings tampered with or came incorrectly configured... If you added the information in yourself, it sounds as if you have not properly set up the customized settings for the lock manufacturer in question...

#1 master pins should not be used with locks which require a two-step progression...

~~ Evan

Actually I have not.. yet used this software on a Schlage. And yes, I realize that there's no #1, just overlooked it when I posted. Just pop open any pinning kit and it shows no #1 on Schlage.

What's really bothering me is, I am trying to sell simple master key systems to landlords and property managers for residential. The problem with this is nearly all use Kwikset because they are rentals and everything is cheap. Master Key Pro uses #1 master pins and the only way (I know of) not to use them is where the "step increments" set to 2-4-6-8. Other than that there's just no option on the software to eliminate #1 masters. The problem with this is you get a VERY small system vs using 2,3,4,5, etc.. masters. I've checked everywhere and I'm convinced now the developer does not think there's a problem with using #1 masters.

[Evan]

What's really bothering me is, I am trying to sell simple master key systems to landlords and property managers for residential. The problem with this is nearly all use Kwikset because they are rentals and everything is cheap. Master Key Pro uses #1 master pins and the only way (I know of) not to use them is where the "step increments" set to 2-4-6-8. Other than that there's just no option on the software to eliminate #1 masters. The problem with this is you get a VERY small system vs using 2,3,4,5, etc.. masters. I've checked everywhere and I'm convinced now the developer does not think there's a problem with using #1 masters.

Kwikset uses .023" difference between bitting depths and is used with single-step progression...

With only 7 bitting depths you wouldn't be able to make more than small systems if you used two-step progression with Kwikset locks...

You need to study more on master keying before you sell system charts for other people to use so you know what instructions to give them to use with the charts...

~~ Evan

[corey2444]

With only 7 bitting depths you wouldn't be able to make more than small systems if you used two-step progression with Kwikset locks...

I don't want a 2 step progression, I want a 1 step with no #1 master. What I also want is to be able to eliminate the number #1 master pin from software i paid $300 for.

Seriously, I guess there's no market for MK system software, but there is a market for lectures on besides the point.

[Schuyler]

Hey, Corey,

Wish I could help with the software, but you may want to ask a mod to help you retitle your post and get it up in the locksmith section. There's a decent chance someone else around LP101 has used the same software you're using and might have an idea, but I'm guessing you're more likely to find them lurking that subsection & will get a faster response if the name of the program is right in the title of your post.

Good luck, and good on ya for trying to avoid the #1 Master Wafers.

[Evan]

With only 7 bitting depths you wouldn't be able to make more than small systems if you used two-step progression with Kwikset locks...

I don't want a 2 step progression, I want a 1 step with no #1 master. What I also want is to be able to eliminate the number #1 master pin from software i paid $300 for.

Seriously, I guess there's no market for MK system software, but there is a market for lectures on besides the point.

THERE IS NO NEED to avoid #1 master pins when creating a master key system for Kwikset locks...

The difference of .023" between increments is enough to not have to worry about it "wearing down" or "getting out" of the chamber... With smaller increments like Schlage at .015" or Corbin-Russwin at .014" those are valid concerns...

Whomever told you that you need to not use #1 master pins in Kwikset locks is either making too broad a generalization because they do not know enough about master keying locks themselves or are just plain wrong...

~~ Evan