KeyMark Locks

[davidmichaelson99]

I recently purchased a bed and breakfast which I intend to continue running as such. Each of the 17 guest rooms is keyed individually with KeyMark brand locks. The previous owner did not take really good care of the place and handed me a box of mismatched and unmarked keys. I've discovered that there is a master for the entire place and that each room key works on the outside doors. Here's the problem. . . I can't find keys to every room. I can get in to them with the master, but I can't give the master out to guests as the previous owner had been doing.

Here are my questions. What should I do with this system? I'd like to have the keys changed, but is this KeyMark system something worth sticking with? I'd like to have a system with keys that cannot be taken to the hardware store and copied easily. Second, will a locksmith be able to change the keys (and the master) or will the entire lock need to be replaced.

I want an unbiased opinion from people who won't be trying to sell me something.

[davidmichaelson99]

If this is not the correct place for this post could you please advise me on where to post instead?

[Squelchtone]

I recently purchased a bed and breakfast which I intend to continue running as such. Each of the 17 guest rooms is keyed individually with KeyMark brand locks. The previous owner did not take really good care of the place and handed me a box of mismatched and unmarked keys. I've discovered that there is a master for the entire place and that each room key works on the outside doors. Here's the problem. . . I can't find keys to every room. I can get in to them with the master, but I can't give the master out to guests as the previous owner had been doing.

Here are my questions. What should I do with this system? I'd like to have the keys changed, but is this KeyMark system something worth sticking with? I'd like to have a system with keys that cannot be taken to the hardware store and copied easily. Second, will a locksmith be able to change the keys (and the master) or will the entire lock need to be replaced.

I want an unbiased opinion from people who won't be trying to sell me something.

heh, not the best place to ask since what we do is pick locks for fun and challenge, but we do know plenty about locks, and some people on here ARE locksmiths so why not.

Keymark was once known as Medeco Keymark, but recently the parent company ASSA Abloy has allowed it to float around and now there are things like Yale Keymark, or just plain old Keymark. It's a pain to pick, getting blanks is a pain unless you are the authorized person, and all in all its' a decent lock. The keys you have should on the back of them have a stamp from the locksmith shop who provided the system, call them explain your situation, and god willing the locksmith has every door cylinders pin chart on file so he can cut you more keys.

Once you get your B&B running, make sure all customers who stay there are well aware that if they do not return the key to the front desk, a $50 fee will be added to their bill or credit card. This will avoid walk offs. The other thing you want to have is a cabinet of copies, so it is easy to take them and get a copy made, but never hand any of the keys in this cabinet to the customers.

The last owner invested some good money in getting much better than average lock cylinders, and somewhere out there exists the pinning charts for this installation. Can you ask the last owner which locksmith he went to? If not, go to the local Medeco locksmiths in town and ask them if they keyed up the bed and breakfast, or just look at the keys and see if it is stamped on them. A system number like KM 305 should be stamped on the keys as well, you could call Medeco and if the locksmith put it on file with them, they can tell you which locksmith shop it was.

If the charts for your system do not exist but you find a keymark locksmith who has the same key blank profiles that will fit your locks, you may have to bring your master key, and remove the locks from the doors to which you do not have keys to, bring them to the locksmith and have him reverse engineer those locks so he can cut the keys based on the pins inside the locks.

Hope this helps
Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

If this is not the correct place for this post could you please advise me on where to post instead?

If we don't reply in 5 minutes after you post, it doesn't mean you posted in the wrong place. It's 2:30pm EST and a lot of people are still at work and wont get to read the forum until tonight.

Thanks
Squelchtone

[davidmichaelson99]

I do know which locksmith did these originally. What would be required for a full re-keying of the entire complex? Also, is it likely that someone could run off and copy one of these at a hardware store?

[Squelchtone]

I do know which locksmith did these originally. What would be required for a full re-keying of the entire complex? Also, is it likely that someone could run off and copy one of these at a hardware store?

No need to rekey the whole place unless you think some locals have the keys. most of the people who stayed at the old B&B were probably out of towners right? So it's probably safe to stick with what you have.

Have you ever seen Keymark blanks at the hardware store? I know I haven't. That's what buying into an better than average system gets you, key protection. No way in hell is anyone stocking those, not Ace, not Home Depot, not Sears, nobody.

If you are really itching to rekey the whole place it wont be cheap. either the locksmith is gonna hang out at your place alllll day so better put on a pot of coffee for him, or you have to remove all the locks and bring them to his shop for a day or two of labor to take everything apart and repin the cores to all new change keys and a new master key. The front door sounds like it is Maison Keyed to allow all the change keys to operate it.

What you will pay for is labor and the cost of keys. 18 locks total.. if you bring him the cylinder cores it will be cheaper, if he has to come out it will be more expensive, and if you bring him entire doorknob assemblies that he has to take apart then it will also cost more.

If you dropped everything off to your locksmith you're looking at something like 18 locks x $15 dollars per rekeyed lock including keys, taxes and associated labor and that's probably a low number. I dont know what the price would be for him to come to your B&B and do it on site. The real locksmiths on here will chime in later, I'm sure they'll give you more accurate prices, and other than being brand loyal to certain lock brands, they will offer you an impartial estimate. If you're only missing like 5 keys to 5 doors, just have him make them up, unless you really think some locals or the ex owner took keys with him/them and you don't trust them for some reason.

You could also change the front door to a differently cut Keymark, or a prox card reader and hand each customer a room key and a front door key or a prox card/keychain.

good luck with your project
Squelchtone

[davidmichaelson99]

I want the whole place rekeyed. The last owner told me that he was just giving out master keys to people staying in rooms where the guest key was lost. Is there a problem with maison keying the front door? I looked it up on Google and there seem to be some concerns about it. I'd be fine with just giving people two keys, but I think it's really cool for it to just work automatically.

[Squelchtone]

I want the whole place rekeyed. The last owner told me that he was just giving out master keys to people staying in rooms where the guest key was lost. Is there a problem with maison keying the front door? I looked it up on Google and there seem to be some concerns about it. I'd be fine with just giving people two keys, but I think it's really cool for it to just work automatically.

Well, now that you know what it will cost to rekey ($15 / lock + maybe a little extra for the master key pinning in each one and the time to do that) nothing wrong with Masion keying, except that your change keys will all look similar on several of their cuts, which for this location is not a big deal especially since you have only 17 doors to protect and this isn't exactly a federal courthouse or nuclear power plant were trying to secure.

The great thing about having separate front door key and room keys is that if someone does take a room key and front door key when they leave, every 3 months you should rekey the front door, and if they return, they cannot get past it because you've rekeyed the main door. But that's only if you feel like playing little cat and mouse games, no need to get that hardcore unless someone's messing with you.

Just make sure to tell local locksmith you want all new change keys and a new master key that is cut differently than the old one, and ask the locksmith to do his best to avoid cross keying and other bloopers so that one change key doesn't open another customers bedroom, or act as a master key on other doors, etc.

Also, invest in some sort of key chains that A. are big and bulky and someone cant forget them in a jeans pocket, B. will advertise your business, so the user doesnt mistake them for their own keys, C. have USPS prepaid writing on them so that if someone leaves with the keys, they can drop them in any mail box and have them returned to you prepaid. Humans are stupid, walking off with the key is still going to happen, unless you address it by having a check out procedure which makes it mandatory that they leave by seeing the front desk first.. hold their license, hold a credit card, etc, something that they will not want to leave behind, that you can exchange for the keys.

Your only variable in pricing will be, as I already mentioned, either taking all the locks to the locksmith, taking just the cores to the locksmith, or having him over for an all day lock rekeying fest.

Let us know how you made out and if you're comfortable sharing, how much you were charged when all was said and done.

Thanks
Squelchtone

[Evan]

Your Questions:

What should I do with this system?

I wholeheartedly agree with your choice to replace the current system with a brand new one by rekeying everything at this point in time...

However, you could opt for going to the original locksmith who created the system and seeing if they kept any records of the key bittings in your system, they could cut new keys to replace the lost ones in your system OR they could decode the locks when presented with your master key and the cylinder like Squelchtone suggested...

I would strongly recommend that you replace the system as you are looking at doing since it is clear that key control and accounting was not something that the former owner put any time into and you the new owner are now left having no idea how many former employees are around town with their own copies of your B&B's master key...

I'd like to have the keys changed, but is this KeyMark system something worth sticking with? I'd like to have a system with keys that cannot be taken to the hardware store and copied easily.

KeyMark will allow you to achieve the goal of having keys not able to be copied by the local hardware stores as Squelchtone mentioned...

You should think carefully about how the new system is designed... You stated you have 18 different keys currently but that sounds like it is leaving a few things out... How are the following things handled right now:

-- employee entry to the building when it is locked...
-- the office/front desk area/guest room key storage drawer/cabinet...
-- your owner's and/or manager's apartment (if there is one)...
-- the kitchen and its associated pantries and/or storage closets...
-- the laundry area and linen storage room or closets...
-- the basement/mechanical room(s)...
-- attic/roof access...
-- shed/garage/maintenance storage areas...
-- other random closets/rooms/areas which guests should not be able to access...

How will you handle your master keys ? Employees should only be using them while at work, and never should they be taking them off the property (they can get lost and require replacing the whole keying system again) but instead they should only have a key(s) which allows them to enter the building and open the secured storage area where the duty keyrings are being secured...

Second, will a locksmith be able to change the keys (and the master) or will the entire lock need to be replaced.

Yes... The locksmith will be able to rekey the lock cylinders to a new keying system without having to replace the entire locksets... You didn't mention what type of locks these are though -- are they mortise, rim, key in lever/knob, SFIC ?

How will you handle lost keys ? Will you keep a set of spare pre-keyed lock cylinders in stock so you can swap them out after a guest leaves without turning in one of their keys ? A missing master key means the entire system needs to be rekeyed again so be careful with them...

Is there a problem with maison keying the front door? I looked it up on Google and there seem to be some concerns about it. I'd be fine with just giving people two keys, but I think it's really cool for it to just work automatically.

With the small size of your system you have nothing to worry about with maison keying your front door... However in an apartment building with a hundred or so units in it, maison keying the entry doors would be something which would cause more problems than it would be any sort of convenience...

If you decide to do a separate key for the front door, just realize you will need to keep that many more keys around so that each copy of each room key is mated with a front door key in a pair of keys you would issue to each guest...

If I were the owner of your B&B I would keep the front door maison keyed just for the convenience of having fewer keys to account for...

If you have any other questions, post them here and I will be happy to help you with them...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Your only variable in pricing will be, as I already mentioned, either taking all the locks to the locksmith, taking just the cores to the locksmith, or having him over for an all day lock rekeying fest.

All day ?

Nah... Unless the locks are really a stubborn PIA to disassemble everything from cutting and stamping the new keys to rekeying the cylinders should take less than three or four hours...

~~ Evan

[davidmichaelson99]

Thanks for your very detailed response. I contacted the locksmith and got a time for them to take a look and give me an estimate and set up an appointment to have the work done.

I'm planning on keeping master keys pretty much to myself and have a duty keyring in the key cabinet. There are other locked areas like Evan mentioned sorry I forgot to mention them. The garage, closets, mechanical areas, and office are all locked on one key (which is lost) and the owner's room is on another key (which is lost too).

You asked what type of locks these are. I'm not quite sure how to describe them other than they have a "figure 8" shape to them. The keyhole is on one side of the "figure 8" and Keymark is stamped on the other side.

[Squelchtone]

Thanks for your very detailed response. I contacted the locksmith and got a time for them to take a look and give me an estimate and set up an appointment to have the work done.

I'm planning on keeping master keys pretty much to myself and have a duty keyring in the key cabinet. There are other locked areas like Evan mentioned sorry I forgot to mention them. The garage, closets, mechanical areas, and office are all locked on one key (which is lost) and the owner's room is on another key (which is lost too).

You asked what type of locks these are. I'm not quite sure how to describe them other than they have a "figure 8" shape to them. The keyhole is on one side of the "figure 8" and Keymark is stamped on the other side.

sounds like a Keymark SFIC (Small Format Interchangeable Core)

Look like this?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsalmon/2297049527/in/photostream/#/

If this is the case, then you're in luck because these are very handy. Look for a key in your box of keys marked "Control" Insert that key into the locks, turn from 12 O'clock to 1 O'Clock, the lock will stop turning, and you can literally pull the 8 shaped core right out of the lock for service, or to put a new core in.

This is a very handy thing for front doors on offices and retail stores, where if an employee is let go, and does not return his front door key, the management can yank the core out using the control key, insert a new core, and basically "repin" the lock on the fly whenever they please, and then issue the new keys to the remaining employees, or trusted people. all they have to do is keep a box of spare cores and keys in stock, and they can rekey/recore as needed.

Ask your locksmith to provide you with the control key for these, when he is done repinning them, and also purchase some spare cores, $50 per Keymark core typically, so you can swap out the front door core, (or whatever other doors you wish to swap out.) It's also an effective way of locking people out if you choose to reduce their access to certain areas.

Thanks for the update
Squelchtone

[raimundo]

Read squelchys posts carefully, hes exactly right.
Not knowing how long this system has been in place, look carefully at the front door which has 18 times more wear on it than the individual room doors, look for any widening of the keyhole due to erosion, this can happen in about ten years on a multiple dwelling. You may have to replace this cylinder if its really heavily used.
best picks for these locks are handmade hooks out of round hardened piano wire.

If one had this problem of lost keys and a master key without the resources available to you, I would recommend reading matt blazes paper on masterkey rights amplification and think about reverse application of this from the master key to derive a working individual key.

Ask the previous owner about any thefts or shennanigans that may have happened in the past, and because he may have some ulterior reason not to admit any or is just in denial, you should also see if the local police have records of any complaints or calls to the address. This would give a realistic idea of what level of threat you have.

On the history channel yesterday, the show 'masterminds' told the story of the chicago chief of detectives hanhart who masterminded a jewelry ripoff somewhere in ohio, keys to the lock boxes were obtained by one person who repeatedly visited the hotel and every time got a key to a different lockbox which was then copied, hard to believe that he actually got a full set, but if the locks were the simple cam locks on mailboxes that were shown in the video, he wouldn't have needed any key, in fact searching for the right key would slow him down when a pair of bogotas would work as fast as a key on any of them

[Evan]

Thanks for your very detailed response. I contacted the locksmith and got a time for them to take a look and give me an estimate and set up an appointment to have the work done.

I'm planning on keeping master keys pretty much to myself and have a duty keyring in the key cabinet. There are other locked areas like Evan mentioned sorry I forgot to mention them. The garage, closets, mechanical areas, and office are all locked on one key (which is lost) and the owner's room is on another key (which is lost too).

You asked what type of locks these are. I'm not quite sure how to describe them other than they have a "figure 8" shape to them. The keyhole is on one side of the "figure 8" and Keymark is stamped on the other side.

You are in luck that the locks are SFIC, that makes replacing them fairly easy...

As far as keeping the master keys to yourself, you need to verify that you are allowed to do that under your local innkeeper laws... Usually the AHJ requires lodging accommodations type establishments to have on hand emergency master keys for the keyed locks for emergency use up to and including a set of keys for the building secured in a fire department lockbox like a Knox Rapid Entry keybox which is attached to the outside of the building somewhere...

Keeping the number of master keys limited to the barest minimum will help extend the life of your keying system... If you never allow any of them to leave the building, none of them can become lost in your travels... You can create keysets for the various functions you need to perform outside which would have a key to the outside door and the garage which the person doing the groundskeeping function could carry rather than the master keys -- if those keys get lost the security of the entire B&B is not compromised if someone finds them...

You might want to consider having separate keys for the various auxiliary areas rather than one key, as those employees while working would have access to the master key, yet you can decide who is given a personal key to each area...

~~ Evan